Host (00:10)
are you from Kelowna? Where were you born?

Brian (00:11)
I am not from Kelowna.

I was born in a town called Seashellt, which is on the Sunshine Coast. Yeah, just around the corner from Vancouver. Essentially, you could drive there, but the mountains are too big, so they make a little ferry to Gibsons, and then you drive to Seashellt. So yeah.

Host (00:18)
Okay.

Wow.

⁓ And how long were you there?

Brian (00:32)
Just a couple of years, this was like, my dad was RCMP and this was back in the day when they didn't want them getting, I don't know.

Host (00:40)
My husband's father. My husband was raised RCMP.

Brian (00:43)
Yeah,

so they transfer him all over the place in hopes that he wouldn't get connected to his community. Yeah heaven forbid And then eventually they realized that actually, this is a good thing So yeah seashell I was just there for two years and then we moved to Vancouver Island

Host (00:51)
you

Okay, and what part of the island? Okomaks. ⁓

Brian (01:03)
Comox. Yeah,

wait a minute. I forgot to stop. We stopped in Hope first. Yeah, we lived in Hope. Click stop over for three years.

Host (01:08)
Like stop like you lived in

Okay, so then you're just entering school in Comox. And then another like three, four years in there.

Brian (01:19)
Yeah, three

years and then to the lower mainland. And that's when we actually put down roots and stayed. ⁓ cool. Yeah. So that was the Vancouver area suburb there. ⁓

Host (01:29)
and what was that like growing up?

Brian (01:31)
Yeah, it was suburbia, right? It was comfortable, fun, stress-free. I had a good social network, had a really strong family as well, so it was easy. Music, skateboarding, skiing, nature, a lot of physical activity for sure, sports and whatnot. And then food, obviously.

Host (01:42)
What type of things were you into? ⁓

Brian (01:55)
I mean, not obviously. I think some people can grow into things. my mom was definitely into food and I was definitely watching over her shoulder from a pretty young age. So that as well.

Host (02:07)
You have good memories in the kitchen. ⁓ huh. ⁓ that's so cool.

Brian (02:09)
Yeah, a lot.

Host (02:12)
I was just thinking of

The transition of having your kids be able to help from watching and then in what ways are they able to help, especially around like the gas stove and the knives and we're right at that transition right now with one of our kids where it's like giving her a little bit of rain and freedom to work in there, to create in the kitchen, I guess you could say, but then you're still quite hovering over. How old is she? Nine. Nine, yeah.

Brian (02:37)
How old Nine. Yeah,

my son's 11. So it was at about age nine where I got him in there and chopping with knives and cooking, doing dangerous stuff. And it was when he showed up, when he would kind of arrive in the kitchen and look around and be like, what are you doing? Instead of me dragging him in there.

Host (02:59)
Yeah,

because it's such a different response,

Brian (03:02)
Yeah, totally. And now he's learned that he can make delicious food. So there's some very basic stuff that I've taught him, which is just such a gift for me. And so now when I pull him in and say, Hey, I'm cooking food like last night, for example, he's got this inherent trust that, you know, I'm a chef and he's capable, he believes in himself now. So he's just got to show up and I'll show him the way.

Host (03:14)
Is it good?

no.

Brian (03:29)
of

how it's done. Yeah, so we made dinner together last night which was really fun.

Host (03:33)
That's so cool. Yeah. I love that. Okay, so when you're in the lower mainland and you're active, outdoorsy type of man, ⁓ when was your first kind of entry into the workforce?

Brian (03:44)
Well, I went to post-secondary and studied environmental sciences. And I thought that was going to be my path. Funny enough. And getting into it, it was a lot of lab work, a little bit of field work. I pictured, you know, when you have this idea of what your life's going to be like, and then you get there and you're like, shit, is not what it was. This is what I had in mind. And it was very much a lot drier.

It was like I had a lab coat on and I was working in a lab as essentially a and the people around me were, you know, just a little, maybe too dry. I was used to working, cause I had worked in kitchens up to that point, you know, washing dishes and whatnot. and the, people that you meet there are very colorful and it was kind of the opposite. Everybody there was a little bit beige.

Host (04:38)
You

Brian (04:40)
And essentially it was the same work, we're mixing things together and but at the end of the day, I mean, I couldn't eat what I made and cooking I could.

Host (04:49)
And the labs are such stale environments.

Brian (04:52)
So sterile, yeah. Yeah, so I did that for a couple years. And then my parents invited me to leave home.

You what? You should go traveling. ⁓ Yeah, and so went and like through Asia and Australia, New Zealand and whatnot and traveled for about a year and then eating good food. And working in kitchens. This is when I started working in kitchens because I had more or less stopped. Well, not more or less. I had stopped working in the environmental field and wanted to just take a year off. And in that time,

Host (05:16)
Good.

Brian (05:32)
Started to get really interested in kitchens because I was working there. It's just such easy work when you're traveling, right? Yeah, so Dug into that and had a lot of fun and when I came back I still I had one of these scenarios, you know the theory of like a sliding glass or sliding door It's it's from a movie I forget what movie it is But there's like this woman in an elevator and it goes to close and somebody sticks their hand in

Host (05:50)
No.

Brian (06:00)
and that person that comes in changes the trajectory of her whole life. And so there is like the moment if he wouldn't have stuck his hand in the door, if he was a half a second later, then her life would have gone a totally different way. So I had this like sliding glass door moment or sliding door moment rather, where I applied for a job in the environmental field. And I'd said to myself, I'm gonna be really disappointed if I don't get this.

So I need to have a plan B that I'm excited about as well. And the plan B was move to actually Big White. ⁓ And yeah, and snowboard because I was really into snowboarding at the time. So I'm going to be happy if I get this like really like high profile job, you know, making money and, and, or if I don't get it, I'm to be really excited to go to Big White.

Host (06:49)
That's a good, yeah, that's a great perspective to have. Yeah, you set yourself up for success there.

Brian (06:53)
I was happy with it. So if

I would have gotten that job, I might not be sitting right here with you right now. Yeah, Frankie, we salute you wouldn't exist. know, everything would have changed.

Host (07:00)
⁓ absolutely not.

So you didn't get the job, you moved to Big White. Did you work in the kitchens up at Big White?

Brian (07:11)
I did, yeah. Yeah. We're just no shoe sounds.

Host (07:14)
wow. I wonder, I might have eaten your food one day.

Brian (07:20)
It probably wasn't that good.

Host (07:21)
Yeah, but still it's kind of a weird thought that our paths might have crossed years ago.

Brian (07:25)
Yeah. Yeah.

So I mean, that was a time for me. I mean, my culinary career hadn't really taken off yet. This is just me being a kid, right? I'm 20 years old. Sure. I'm still working in kitchens, but I hadn't decided that I wanted to be a chef. There was a big distinction between just working in a kitchen and deciding that I was going to be a was just having fun.

Host (07:46)
Yeah, I hope it was a good snow year. Yeah, okay ⁓ nice Because there have been some doozers over the disease over the last decade or two.

Brian (07:49)
So could I stay another year.

yeah.

But yeah,

so that was a lot of fun

Host (07:59)
Did you stay up there, I'm assuming? Or did you travel from Kelowna? You lived up there. Yeah.

Brian (08:02)
No, yeah, lived up there. Yeah,

so Great memories. Great memories.

Host (08:08)
I would imagine like staff accommodation, the community, all the young, you know, all the youth. Yeah, it's like dorm living.

Brian (08:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you find your crew and yeah, it was just it was easy It was like kind of an extension of what I was saying about living in the suburbs, right? was just I like I see my nieces and nephews today It's it's hard today and I back in the 90s. It was quite Don't know wasn't as No No,

Host (08:35)
I don't think it was.

Brian (08:37)
definite privilege back then, which you had no clue. You know, I was like so in the dark with like these kinds of things. Yeah. And, and enjoyed myself. And then after that I had met an Australian woman there, of big white. Yeah.

Host (08:50)
Yeah.

Surprised you didn't pick up an accent. Yeah.

Brian (08:54)
So then I went to Australia and lived there for a year and this is when I really My eyes got open to like what good cuisine could be. I was like 21 and I was like, oh wow. Yes. Okay They do it proper. They can make a proper coffee In Melbourne, they had like fancy restaurants, you know I was a bit oblivious to all of this when I was a teenager obviously because I was living in the suburbs I wouldn't go downtown if I was I was just going to pick up a punk rock show or whatever

Host (09:23)
Yeah.

Brian (09:24)
Not going for a fancy dinner. so yeah Australia was a bit of a turning point in my career where I was like ⁓ actually, this is yeah, I think this is there's something here

Host (09:35)
So were you working in a kitchen in Australia? was, okay. And a higher, I take it a higher end kitchen? Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. And then you only stayed one year?

Brian (09:40)
Kind of mid range, yeah. ⁓

It was fun.

Just stayed a year, yeah, yeah, came home. My parents had moved away, of course. They were to live. ⁓ They moved to the Okanagan, ⁓ Yes, yes. Which I was happy for them and also happy for myself because I was then able to move downtown and live my adult life, you know?

Host (10:11)
Downtown Vernon or downtown Vancouver? Vancouver. Vancouver. And then what did you, where did you work?

Brian (10:19)
From there, I worked at Earl's. Yeah, yeah. And I had, actually hold on a sec, I went to Whistler for a couple of years after Australia. ⁓ wow. Wasn't done yet. Yeah, moved to Whistler, lived there for a year and a half or so and worked at Earl's there, which was a wild experience. Like, ⁓ talk about a pirate ship full of lunatics working at Earl's in Whistler.

Host (10:22)
Okay.

I about Whistler.

yeah. ⁓

Brian (10:48)
So fun. So insane. So that was fun. So when I got, when I moved back to Vancouver, naturally, I just worked at Earls because it was what I knew. Yeah, I knew and I was good at and I had connections there.

Host (11:00)
Did Earls do a lot of on the job like training and stuff for culinary techniques and all that?

Brian (11:06)
Somewhat, I

would say medium. The Earls back then, would make, they didn't have big commissary production kitchens where they'd centrally make all of their, say, soups or sauces or whatever, and ship them out to all the locations.

Host (11:21)
is that what they do now? Yes. ⁓ I see.

Brian (11:25)
Yeah, even some of their sauces, they get another company to make it and they just buy it off of them. But it's their recipe. Gotcha. So they've outsourced it just to streamline their...

Host (11:34)
And probably consistency too.

Brian (11:36)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah So but ⁓ Previously everything was made from scratch. So I learned a lot of technique at Earl's believe it or was really fun. Yeah, and it was just kind of easy food and really fun community and whatnot. So Yeah, mean Earl's was great. I mean, there's there's some haters out there on you know, the chain restaurants They are a huge part of Kelowna Yeah

Host (12:00)
Yeah, it is what it is. Yeah.

Brian (12:04)
So, I mean, we get a lot of staff at Frankie, we salute you from these restaurants and they come and they're for the most part, really, really good employees. Yeah, they know their stuff. Which is, yeah, so nice.

Host (12:15)
Yeah, somebody else can train them up and then you can hire them. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, that's perfect. ⁓ I do have a memory of ⁓ and this might sound absolutely ridiculous, but one of my most favorite soups I've ever had. I used to meet my my father passed away a few years ago, but I used to meet him downtown because he used to at the city.

Brian (12:19)
thing.

Host (12:41)
and we'd take the bus down or meet him for lunch. If I was in town from university, we'd always go for lunch. Quite often we'd actually go to that Earl's downtown because the view is beautiful. And I have this distinct memory of like I never order soup, but I, for whatever reason, I ordered soup that day. I think my father was like, oh, the tomato soup's really good. I'm like, whatever, tomato soup. And I remember taking my first bite with that,

homemade crouton and it was the most fabulous soup I've ever had. And like I went back, this was back in the day, because they must have made it in-house because it was never tasted the same. to that, whatever it was that day, it was just beyond delicious. And to this day, searching for that flavor or whatever it is they did and I don't think I'll ever come across it again. I don't know what they did that day. Or maybe it was just

my mood or being with my dad, my best friend, whatever it was, the confluence of everything, it was just this perfect moment.

Brian (13:42)
I love those moments. Yeah, I've got a few of those for sure. you? And yeah, and like you said, sometimes it might be the foods, sometimes not. I mean, do have moments, two of my top three food moments. Two of them were definitely just setting.

Host (14:01)
Can you share one or both?

Brian (14:03)
I'd love to. Yeah. the first one was my Scottish heritage. So my dad, I was living in London at the time. My parents came out to the UK and they're like, meet us in Edinburgh. We're going to rent a car. We're to go for a drive around Scotland. I was like, see you there. So we went up to where his, where my granddad was born. And then we kept going and went out to an island called Islay Skye.

And we were in the small little town called Portree. don't know. Tiny, right? Like a few hundred people kind of thing. And there was this little harbor and we were just wandering around and looking for lunch and picked a spot and we went in there. It was very unassuming, but right on this like picturesque bay. we were like two or three days into our trip and kind of just settling into nice groove. And the waitress came over and she said, you know, we just

grab some mussels out of the sea and they're served with like a white wine cream sauce. know, she's kind of made it sound average. But to me, I looked at my dad and we were just like, yeah, we're getting the mussels. And we had it, it was just very, very simple. But the fact that it was the trip with my dad to visit the place where his dad was from. And my mom was there as well. And was the three of us and we had just hit this.

case of life that was nice and slow that matched the speed of that island. And we were settling into just like a really, really nice conversation and a nice time with three of us. And then you take your first bite of this dish and it's like is it, could have been the whiskey, it might've been the gin. Like was it the dish was actually that good or was it just the setting and

this moment of connection with my parents. either way, doesn't matter.

Host (15:58)
It's a moment that you, for whatever reason, there's moments that we remember. It's a moment you remember.

Brian (16:03)
Yeah, forever. I'll forever remember that where the muscles go, I don't actually know.

Host (16:10)
They were fresh, might be the freshest

Brian (16:12)
Yes, they weren't bad. I would have remembered if they were bad.

Host (16:15)
Yeah, and you think of all the meals you've had your entire life, like how but there's that one you remember. I guess, neat.

Brian (16:24)
Yeah. And I think it gets back to there's this, you know, the author, Michael Paulin, he talks about, ⁓ how the influence of set and setting can have. your mindset and where you are, the setting where you're at can vastly influence your, how you interact with the world. And I think that was the perfect thing. Like the set and setting were, were perfect. So it could have been a burger. It could have been whatever, right?

And the same thing I think applies to one of my other favorite food experiences where I was with my wife at the time and we got lost in Venice. Like, let's go for a walk. I mean, you go for a walk in Venice. It takes five minutes and you have no clue where you are. And we came, we were hungry and then we walked longer and then we were hangry. And then we came around this corner and there's this chef, very robust chef.

sitting outside his restaurant smoking cigarettes. And she looked at him and she's like, I want to eat what he's making. It was just this. I mean, yeah, the visual is like, obviously, and he's on the canal, like, it's a little cute little, of course. So, you know, we walk up and he knows, he says, come in. He pulls out the seat. puts down two glasses per second. He doesn't ask any questions. He just puts down, you know, and then we ordered.

Two pizzas, one of them was a porcini and one of them was a squash blossom, like a zucchini blossom pizza. And it was perfection. It was perfection. I've had better pizza in my life, but that meal was perfection. And it was the set where we're like hangry, but also like we have wanderlust because we're traveling, we're in a new place. Like you're just wide open at that point. ⁓ So it makes the experience that much better.

Host (18:04)
everything.

thanks for where so where are we in your story right now? You went to Whistler and then Because you had forgotten your couple years in Whistler because you went to Earls downtown. Yes, Vancouver

Brian (18:32)
And then I told my chef that I was leaving because I wanted to go do my apprenticeship. I wanted to become a real chef. This is when I decided, I was like, you know what? Piss her, off the pot, man. Let's do this. And he sat me down and he was, he, he was like, well, uh, are you sure? I was like, well, uh, yeah, I told you, I'm sure I'm doing this thing. He's like, I just want to warn you about this, fine dining world. Cause Earl's is not fine dining.

No, and there's this reputation of fine dining to be like savage like cutthroat hard long hours, etc, etc high stress high standards, chefs that you know, yell in your face all this stuff and this was Late 90s early 2000s. I think it was early 2000s. So that culture was very much still alive And and I was kind of like what like really like I hadn't heard of it

Host (19:27)
This is

Brian (19:30)
No, no, not at all. didn't like iPhones weren't out yet. Right? So yeah, we it was not the age of information quite yet. We were on the cusp of it for sure. So I said, you know what? I can do this. I'm going to do this. You know, I'm I've got tough skin or thick skin rather. And I'm resilient. I'm hardworking. I'm talented. I can do this. You know, he's like, yeah, it sounds great. He gave him my blessing, his blessing rather. and off I went and

When I don't know a couple blocks up the road to this really I mean it wasn't really fine dining but it was one of the most popular restaurants in Vancouver at the time. funny enough I didn't realize this till years after it was where small plates were invented. Do know this concept of like appetizers and mains and desserts at a standard restaurant or there is this movement about 15 20 years ago.

where you go and you get a bunch of smaller plates and you'd get it for the table and everybody would share.

Host (20:28)
So my only I don't know about the movement but that's what I loved when I lived in China Was that everything was you always sat at the circle table big lazy Susan and they'd bring out a bunch of little things You all just pass it on and share that is my favorite way to eat my favorite way. You don't really experience that much here

Brian (20:47)
especially with a tail that spins. And you get to like, know, steal food away from people and wheel it around and grab.

Host (20:55)
But didn't know it was a movement here. You said that was early 2000?

Brian (20:59)
Yeah. Yeah. So what let's do the math here. I was yeah, this is about 2003 2004.

Host (21:08)
Yeah, so I had. Yeah, I was I just graduated high school and no money. I was not eating out for probably another 10 years. Actually, it's true.

Brian (21:21)
Yeah, nor was I. I was just working in them. Still couldn't afford to eat there.

Host (21:24)
Yeah.

But I like, okay, tell me more about this because I do. Where did the trend go? Yeah. Anyways.

Brian (21:32)
Well, the trend is still around it just it's more Like in Kelowna, I think there's a few places you can go to eat like this for sure I think humo is a kya though. You can eat like that there and There's a couple others that are slipping my mind right now, but yeah, it's out there Yeah, anyways say 20 years ago was it was really popular the chef at the time. He was self-taught He was a wild man an absolute wild man

Yeah, I've got some stories about this man, but they're not suitable for the radio.

Host (22:05)
That's okay.

Brian (22:06)
We've

got a lot of stories. So, and this was at the time when ⁓ I first read Kitchen Confidential.

Host (22:13)
Anthony Bourdain

Brian (22:16)
So.

Host (22:18)
Every chef that I've talked to from your decade, like era I guess you could say, always has like the same thing. Like some of these people you worked with just crazy, like wild wild stories. was just like the culture back then. Maybe still is, I don't know but...

Brian (22:39)
Yeah, I mean he was he passed away. He's gone. He was too big for this world He was yeah a legend right like he he became famous he he I mean there was another chef in san francisco that invented this way of eating as well at the same time So there's like arguments of who who did it first, but essentially ⁓ yeah, well, yeah, yes. Yes I worked there for a number of years and

Host (22:58)
I'm like Asia.

Thanks.

Brian (23:07)
did my apprenticeship there and worked my way up to Sous Chef and was it? ⁓ No, no, not this place. This place was a little bit different. It was definitely hard and we were pushed our limits, but it was done from compassion and not from malice, which some of the old places where it was just, yeah.

Host (23:10)
throat.

kitchen style.

Brian (23:28)
just how to get people, know. ⁓

Host (23:31)
That's cool that you had a better experience.

Brian (23:33)
Yeah, it was fun. Yeah, and kitchen confidential was unfolding in this kitchen that I was working in in real time while I was reading the book as well. there was some wild moments, were a lot of fun when you're mid 20s, right? Like, yeah, having so much fun in the kitchen and I still keep in touch with all these people. Yeah.

Host (23:53)
It seems like there's such a...

There can really be the opportunity in a kitchen to get really close like a family, feels like, because you're working in such high stress environments and you're relying on each other that you, there's like a bond that seems to form.

Brian (24:06)
Hmm.

Yeah, and you're in it whether you like it or not.

Host (24:09)
You ⁓

Brian (24:10)
Yeah, you're just thrown into these wild situations. So yeah, you go to war with these people, right? So yeah, they become lifelong friends for For sure. So I finished my apprenticeship there I had met my future wife at the time and she had gotten a scholarship to study in Europe and we had been dating for like three months and she's like, so yeah, I'm going to Europe.

I remember those like so oblivious, but I was like, hey, yeah, cool. So can I come? She's like, well

Like okay, okay. Okay. I get it. I get it. I can get my UK ancestry. I'm just gonna get a visa. I'll come you know what I I'm at the hint of us not working them out It's all good. Like I get it, right? I'm not gonna cramp your style and whatever follow you all around Europe I can be self-sufficient and be on my way and we ended up getting married five years later. So it worked out for the best

Yeah, so we packed our bags and moved to Europe and lived there for the best part of five years.

Host (25:17)
wow, that's a really good chunk of time. And were you in kitchen still?

Brian (25:18)
Yeah, it was great.

I was in kitchens the whole time. Nice. Yeah, this is where I really learned to become who I was. I was vegetarian when I was living in Vancouver and I was working at like this restaurant, was called Bin 942, where I did my apprenticeship. And I would go eating out, but there was no vegetarian restaurants to eat at. There was, well, was two.

The NAMM, which was very much just like brown rice, tofu, sprouts, and another place called Sajuiced, which was like a juice bar with brown rice, tofu, sprouts. Like it was very, very limited culinary inspiration, I'll just say that much. Meanwhile, in San Francisco and LA and New York, there was these amazing restaurants popping up, which were inspiring to me because they were pushing the envelope for vegetarian cuisine at the time.

So when I went to Europe, I chose the restaurants I worked at very carefully. And they weren't vegetarian restaurants because I knew there was a definite ceiling to what vegetarian restaurants were cooking. there was this like, really ultra high end like Michelin star scene that they were where they'd have tasting menus and they'd have one tasting menu that would be meat and then another one that would be vegetarian. And like, kind of only the best of the best restaurants would do this.

So it's like, am going to go and work at these places where they have vegetarian tasting menus because it's like whatever, two Michelin star, you know, $300 meals that they're cooking for people. And this is where I wanted to be because I wanted to learn how to really, really cook vegetables the way they should be cooked at a high level. Yeah. So the journey through Europe was not an easy one. I'll say that much. It was...

The hardest, the hardest jobs I've ever had in my life were in Europe, without a shadow of a doubt.

Host (27:11)
Is it just in what it just the hours, the intensity, the expectation? Was the language an issue at all? ⁓

Brian (27:19)
All

the above. All the above. All the above. Yeah. So, my first restaurant I worked at was a restaurant called sketch and it was central London. It was a three story building with four restaurants in it. And the top one was like this two Michelin star, really fine dining restaurant from this famous Parisian chef who set up a restaurant in London. And, and I admired him greatly.

It was like kind of a rock star thing where I was like, I want to work for this man because you know, he had a three Michelin star restaurant in Paris that redefined French cuisine in the nineties. He, yeah, there was this traditional old school French classic food that has been made for eons. And he came up and he had been cooking this and he's like, actually I want to do things different. And so he opened this restaurant and made French food in, in, in.

hashtags here or your tags rather That was vastly different from anything that had ever happened in France

Host (28:21)
Is this... is there documentary on this guy?

Brian (28:24)
There could be. I'm not sure, his name is Pierogonier.

Host (28:27)
Yeah, I think my husband and I watched it was this really michelin star Everything that you just said chef and he's got read redefine. Yeah redefined french cuisine

Brian (28:39)
There's a

few of them out there for sure he had like long white hair anyways, so the first Person came to review his restaurant and she's just like this is awful What is this man doing? Like I Why and it was devastating for him and then he kept going kept pushing and I feel like a lot of People who have done great things in this life have this moment where life pushes back

and asks you the question, you really want to keep going? And he did. And then she came back again and reviewed him and gave him this glowing review. And she was like, it was me. I didn't understand. This man is a genius. after that, yeah, this after that, he got his three Michelin stars and then started to go around. Anyways, he opened this restaurant in London. So I go, really excited. ⁓ A lot of the...

cooks there were from France. were French speaking the kitchen service was in French. So I didn't realize that taking the job. It was one of these moments where you're like, oh damn, oh, yeah, I got the job and I was working there and I was working in the kitchen. And it was yeah, I mean, it was I was at the bottom of the totem pole. And there let me know

I was, you know, a mercenary that would do all the dirty work for them. Okay, fair enough. Like I kind of got that. So I just worked hard. I just put my head down, shut up, get the job done and actually gained the respect of at least one or two people and ⁓ managed to get my own station in the kitchen. Very exciting. And I remember one night I was making food and the chef was there.

He had come over from Paris because he wouldn't work there on a regular basis. He would come a couple times a year. So he came over and he was cooking and I was like shaking my boots because i'm about to hand him my food and he's going to plate it up and I remember he in his hand he took the the little saucepan of of like the sauce that I'd made and he had a spoon and he put it to his lips and he tasted it to make sure it was good before he put on the plate and then he nodded his head and turned around and put it on the plate.

And for me, that was it. That was all I needed. I was done. I could have died. I was happy. Yeah. Just to get that, like the approval. nod is a big thing. Yeah. And I mean, if it wouldn't have been good, I would have heard all about it. So the stakes are so high, right? Yeah.

Host (30:59)
ecstasy right there.

Just that one, that motion can affect somebody's life.

Brian (31:15)
life. Yeah.

Host (31:17)
Nodding your head an inch. Life changing. The power,

Brian (31:22)
Yes, yes, so I worked there for a while and my ⁓ I learned a lot of My creativity came from there for sure It was too hard though. I was working our hours were 8 a.m. To midnight five days a week

Host (31:37)
Yeah, not much of a life. It is your life.

Brian (31:41)
It is. It's your only life. Yeah, actually we had a half day. A half day was eight hours on Saturdays. It was insane. So I decided to leave because it was just, I was, I had no life.

Host (31:54)
And that it's that kind of the experience that that your mentor at Earl's kind of warned you about and then you finally experienced it.

Brian (32:03)
Yeah, think I so. Yeah. Yeah, and it was it was cut throat there for sure. Yeah in many I after that I worked at a few more restaurants in London picked ones that were not quite so high-end that were definitely very refined but not not like that that was that was pretty intense and We had I had a lot of fun there over the course of years met a beautiful community of people in London. Yeah

Host (32:22)
Yeah.

Brian (32:31)
through playing, oddly enough, bike polo. Do know what this is? ⁓ can you imagine what it is?

Host (32:35)
No. I'd

imagine it's like polo but bicycles instead of horses. Literally what you're saying. Yes. I've never seen it though. No.

Brian (32:40)
Yes, exactly.

not

I mean it's a fringe thing it's really yeah anyways met beautiful people having a ton of fun playing bike polo so

Host (32:54)
The only thing that would make that more epic if they were like unicycles or something. Right. You turn on a dive.

Brian (33:03)
So, Europe was fun before I left. I wanted to do something big. So I'd always dreamed of working in this restaurant in Copenhagen called Noma. And at the time they were the number one restaurant. Yeah. so I got an internship there or a stash there for five weeks. What? Yes. Yes. And, and this was

Host (33:15)
Yeah.

Brian (33:25)
one of the most beautiful five weeks of my life for sure. It was hard. I expected it to be really hard and yes, can confirm very hard and also very, very rewarding.

Host (33:29)
Wow!

That's wild! Like I'm not even in the cooking world and I know this place. Yeah, that's how big this place is.

Brian (33:39)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, it was a privilege to be there. I don't take that for granted to get the opportunity to go there, and I didn't at the time.

Host (33:58)
gotta be a lineup of people wanting to to get that internship. ⁓

Brian (34:02)
Yeah, yeah,

I knew somebody in London. So I had the inside track to get in there. for me, I learned, what did I learn there? I learned.

I think the patience that it takes to be creative.

I feel like creativity is something that we sometimes expect to come quicker than it does. For me, I, when I returned to Vancouver, I wanted to use all these things that I learned to set up ⁓ a restaurant that Vancouver was begging for. When I left, it was, there was nothing right? Like there was just brown rice and tofu and sprouts and whatever. And

I mean, a city that big on the West coast with as many vegetarians and plant-based curious people out there. I just needed to open my doors to with a new restaurant. And I knew it would be a huge success. And then to layer on top of that, all of these things that I learned in Europe that I had up my sleeve. And it was a curious time because I didn't know what was about to unfold.

⁓ and I hadn't tasted anybody who had cooked food like me, just because I had this unique.

⁓ path of how I like I was vegetarian and I went and worked in Europe and and learned all these kind of high-end techniques and I hadn't tasted any food like that and it was it was a strange place because if I was opening up a French restaurant and I went up the street and tried their whatever their dot-com fee their beef bourguignon like okay Well, mine's not as good as that. But whatever, you know, you I'm gonna charge 40 bucks I like I had no benchmark I had nobody nowhere to go to realize like how is this gonna how do I price this?

Who's going to show up? Are people going to be happy? Are people interested in this food? I had no idea. I had no idea. And, then, so the, my creative process, I had a lot of this experience, but still to make it reflective of who I was at the time in Vancouver to reflect what was going on in my life, but also in the food scene.

and make things relevant, it required a lot of patience. seeing, working at Noma and witnessing this, had like, I mean, they've got resources, right? So I worked in their development lab where there was three different chefs that would sit every morning. They'd make a giant pot of coffee. And I was lucky enough to be like their assistant in the kitchen and like whatever, make them coffee, wash their dishes. I don't give a shit. Let me just like, let me witness this.

And they would make a pot of coffee and they'd sit around a table and they'd pour their coffee and they wouldn't say anything. They would just sit for the first 10 minutes. They would just sit and they knew this. This was their superpower. And they would collect their thoughts and allow themselves to arrive. And then they would start talking. And so there were, when I say patients, I was like, ⁓ shit. I've always expected that you sit down, you start writing and, and ideas flow and

Yeah. So for me bringing this, this like piece with me to my new restaurant was an exciting, a really exciting thing.

Host (37:36)
Yeah. So did you end up opening a restaurant in Vancouver?

Brian (37:40)
I did, yes. It was called the acorn. The acorn. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a high end vegetarian food and yeah, people liked it. It's still going. Yeah. I was there for three. Okay. I was there for three. I sold it to my business partner who I opened it up with and she's still running it to this day. ⁓ yeah. So it's still going strong.

Host (37:43)
equal.

Pretty cool. How many years did you? How many years were you there?

Brian (38:12)
Yeah, yeah, we had a lot of fun there.

Host (38:14)
That's cool. Why did you end up needing to sell?

Brian (38:19)
Well, Vancouver is a pricey town. My wife and I, had a kid. Oh, you've had a kid? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So we, and I mean, you get to a certain point where you need to, yeah, you need to live, right? You need to grow and into a bigger space. We couldn't afford to buy a house in Vancouver. So we decided to get out of the city and sell the business and do our thing. So yeah.

Host (38:46)
that's cool.

And so she had her scholarship over in Europe. She was able to come back and get a job.

Brian (38:54)
Yeah, she was working at that time. She was working for UBC. Oh, yeah.

Host (39:06)
and then did you come to Kelowna after that? We did, yeah. able to transfer to UBCO or?

Brian (39:12)
⁓

Yeah, no, she worked at Okanagan College.

Host (39:15)
Oh, you're going to college, okay.

So why did you come to Kelowna instead of Vernon where your parents are or anywhere else?

Brian (39:22)
Yeah, mean, a great question. If you can go anywhere in BC, I really wanted to stay in BC because I was born here and I love skiing. ⁓ we looked at the Sunshine Coast, like Gibson's. There's a lot of our friends that were moving over there. We looked at Pendicton. My parents had don't move to Vernon, so we took their word. They knew that I wanted to set up a business and they... ⁓

Host (39:43)
Ha

Brian (39:49)
had witnessed a lot of restaurants opening closed over the years. And I think they just thought that Kelowna would probably be a more suitable place, which I agreed with. So we looked at Kelowna. We also looked at Revelstoke.

Host (40:02)
I love Rimbaud.

Brian (40:03)
Yeah,

agreed. And we decided on Kelowna for many reasons. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, Kelowna is great. And I had, I mean, my mom's best friend was from Kelowna, so we'd come up yearly since I was a kid. So Kelowna was very much like home. Yeah.

Host (40:19)
Yeah, and now before so did you did you know you were gonna open up a restaurant in Clona in moving here? Like did you have the ball rolling while you were still in Vancouver?

Brian (40:30)
So I'll give you a little bit of a long answer to that question. The Acorn was, we were really, really, really busy, like very, very successful. And it was hard. We were working. I worked like I've never worked before. And my relationship with my business partner, we didn't see eye eye on a few things and it was a time stressful.

Restaurants can chew you up a little bit and spit you out So I I ended up selling and felt good about what I had done. We had a lot of Good press and a lot of success but I felt like I'd been beat up by the industry and I questioned whether I was gonna go back I had this moment where I was like, oh man really like is it worth it kind of thing Because of how hard you work and it's very physically demanding

very physically demanding to be a chef working 12 hour days on your feet, five days a week, six days a week, whatever it is when you're starting up your business. And so I had this moment where I had.

I whether I was going to stay in the industry. do you know, do you know the concept of first mountains and second mountain? There's a book written called the second mountain. And the idea is, is that the first mountain is when in our life, when we seek for money, fame, status, whatever, and we climb, we climb the corporate ladder or whatever it might be.

Host (41:53)
No.

Brian (42:11)
To get to strive to to get whether it's status or money or whatever and then when you get there and you look around and you're like, ⁓ shit There's more to life than this and i'm not happy and i'm not fulfilled and all these dreams that I had where i'm going to be happy they're not here and then you fall off the first mountain and you're In the swamp And then you start climbing your second mountain, which is a life more based on

community and service and purpose and whatnot. And so Acorn was my first mountain. I was young. I was a hot headed chef. I was cooking whatever I wanted and people were eating it up literally and figuratively. is this, was I happy? ⁓ man, not really. And if I were to stay in the industry,

what would it take to make me happy? What would my business look like? What would I need to change? What angles, what I need to approach it from to make it more sustainable? And thinking about when I was working at Nomai, it was so hard. It was so crazy. The food was like little pieces of art. Like we weren't eating the food. We were making it and creating it, but I hardly even viewed it as food. was just these beautiful pieces of art that we'd send out into the dining room.

And halfway through the day, we'd stop for staff meal. And because it was such a vastly ⁓ international staff, there would be whatever Carlos from Nicaragua would make his mom's favorite dinner that he ate growing up. then whoever Jimmy from Louisiana would make ribs the next day. And then somebody else from...

wherever Japan would make it. So ⁓ we would look forward to, there was this beautiful thing where we'd break bread with these people that would be in the trenches with, which were like little temporary family. And that was the highlight of the day where we get to sit down and be like, ⁓ man, can we make it through the rest of the day? We don't know, but we'd sit and we'd eat this food, right? And so I started reflecting on that aspect of the industry where there's this like, ⁓

There's this family that you gain, like a chosen family that you join. And could I bring that spirit into my next restaurant? And so the acorn was very much about food that I wanted to cook. So if I want to put parsley root on the menu, I would do it. Was I thinking about my customers? No, I was thinking about what I wanted to do.

So it was very much based in ego. And then I tried to, my attempt with Frankie We Salute You is taking the ego out of it and cooking from the heart the food that I would like to share with my friends and family. So was.

in an attempt to create more balance and harmony and community in my life.

Host (45:24)
⁓ cool. It's like your family meal. You're making a family meal for everybody every day.

Brian (45:29)
Every

day. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. So it's the big difference is Acorn is food that I wanted to cook and this is food that I want to eat. ⁓ Yeah, that's very simple. Yeah. Yeah And I hope that comes through in the food

Host (45:43)
It feels so good. Yeah. Yeah, of course.

Brian (45:47)
Yeah, we like it too. Yeah,

we eat it every day. It's funny saying that out loud for years. I never said like yeah, thanks I like it too because it just seems like a bit like you're I don't know but egotistical or whatever but I Yeah, yeah, we'll sit down we this is what we do before we put something on the menu. Well, we'll sit down We'll all eat it together. We'll share a meal together. We're like, yeah, that was great, you know

Host (46:01)
I think it's important to like it.

Brian (46:13)
Or if it doesn't fit, if it doesn't fit that, you know, breaking bread and sitting down together, then maybe it doesn't go on the menu. And one of our most famous dishes was a literal staff meal that I cooked and we all sat down, we ate it and it went quiet. Everybody's just eating and chewing. This is the, ⁓ Shriza ranch arable. okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, ⁓ yeah. And then at the end of it, we're like, well, damn, that's going on the menu.

Host (46:29)
fun was.

We had that, yeah.

Brian (46:41)
We just all enjoyed it so much and it just fit exactly the Excuse me. It fit the same kind of criteria that the family meal at Noma fit where we make something. We all sit down, we share it together.

Host (46:56)
There's still like a massive jump from working in the kitchen to then becoming a business owner. Like that jump when you had an acorn, like that's a totally different ball game when now you own the business and you're not just going to not to say not just but instead of just going and cooking you now have everything on your plate.

Brian (47:21)
Yeah.

Host (47:22)
What experiences did you take from Acorn that you applied to opening up Frankies?

Brian (47:29)
I took inspiration through maybe shortcomings that I had in my first business where I felt like I missed the mark on creating a strong workplace culture. I was really focused on myself and the food and, totally missed the missed that one. I don't think to anybody's detriment, but I

I feel like there was a lot of room for improvement. So one of my benchmarks for success in this business, ⁓ there's so much emphasis put on money and profit in, rightfully so, it's business, right? You gotta pay rent, right? But I, from the get-go, wanted one of my benchmarks for how successful the business is.

Host (48:09)
survive. This is gotta be in the black.

Brian (48:19)
was is how happy are my staff and how pleased are people to come to work? ⁓ What version of yourself do you leave after you've worked at Frankie we salute you and could it be a better version of yourself walking out the door than when you walked in? Yeah. And we've been doing great. I feel I used to work really hard at it and now it's just has its

Host (48:40)
Hmm.

Brian (48:46)
this momentum of its own where people come in and even some of my staff all witness them saying that like, yeah, this is a place, you know, where people come in there like kind of work on themselves and become better versions of the set, whatever it might be. yeah, it just makes me so proud. It makes me so proud to have a business where people can come in and see it ⁓ as a catalyst for change.

Host (49:11)
Where did come up with the name? Do you want to the background story?

Brian (49:13)
Yeah, yeah When I lived in London, there was this little cafe around the corner and there was this ⁓ Actor I forget her last name, but her name was Tina. She's like this obscure 70s actor That would act in like romance and action movies and they had you know, there was like black velour Like art pieces that hang on walls. They're like from the 80s. yeah Yeah, there was like like there was one of those of her and like really kind of

racy Suggestive like posters of her on the wall and the place was called Tina. We salute you And I loved it where I there all the time and it was just this tiny little hole in the wall and it was just so weird like I love weird stuff like that and so it always stuck with me and then As I was trying to figure out what I was gonna call Frankie. We salute you ⁓ My granddad the Scottish one he when he immigrated to Canada

Host (49:50)
Yes.

Brian (50:13)
Was a self-made horticulturist botanist who made his mark in the world through developing a bunch of different plants through grafting and He wanted to create like hardy plants versions of local plants that would survive Canadian winters Yes, super fun so he did a lot of work in that space and and got a lot of recognition for his work because he was able to bring a lot of

Host (50:29)
Wow.

Brian (50:38)
trees to the prairies that would actually thrive and survive and create windbreaks for communities and whatnot.

Host (50:44)
your grandfather was the one who did that? Yeah. Okay because our family farm in Regina or just outside Regina, my mom tells me the story of when her father planted these trees like a row to windbreak and there was a big thing about them and they're still there today on the farm and it was probably your

Brian (51:08)
Probably because the that's why the arboretum where the trees would have like where they set up. Yeah was if you go straight east from Regina and cross the border into Manitoba, it's right there. Wow. Yeah. So I wouldn't be surprised because that was his whole thing. He would travel to Kew Gardens in London and get Siberian versions of the local trees and bring them back to Canada and graph them together so they would become more hardy and could survive.

Host (51:37)
Yeah, yeah,

this was the thing a lot of farmers planted them on like like rows of them well to we have to win

Brian (51:39)
So this was his.

I mean, we'll never know, but can we just say, we'll just say, yeah, let's do it.

Host (51:49)
Yeah, wow. How many people were doing that? grafting, you know what I mean? Probably him. I can't imagine there being that many people doing that.

Brian (51:51)
Thanks for your support.

I don't know. Probably not too many.

So that was one Frank and my wife at the time that I set the business up with her granddad as well. He was a Frank. Oh wow. Yes and he was in England and during World War II they would give out seeds and land and allow the general public to plant victory gardens.

When the seeds and land were given out for his neighborhood, he took the opportunity to really just go with it. And I think grew for a lot of the neighborhood, or at least his immediate neighbors. And that was kind of his thing was, know, grandpa Frank would be in the garden. And I remember there's a photo of him just sitting in a lawn chair, drinking a cup of tea in his victory garden. So cute. So like, come on, man, the story writes itself, these two Franks, you know, obviously.

very similar in their admiration for the natural world and gardens. so Frankies, what are we gonna call it? Franks, you know? And I was like, wait a minute, Frankie.

Host (53:05)
I like that background. And then what was it like finding a spot?

Brian (53:09)
Yeah, I mean, we looked at 25 spots. It's hard. Is that available? Yeah. So originally we were going to set it up in Vancouver and we had the subjects removed on and we had a lease set up in Vancouver, like right near Maine and Broadway down in the city. And I remember in the week that we were removing subjects, there was two big restaurants that folded in Vancouver and they were popular thriving restaurants.

Host (53:13)
⁓ yeah.

Brian (53:38)
And it was due to landlords bumping the rent or there was another scenario where was property taxes went up like crazy and it just became started to become ⁓ not, yeah, very hard to run a business in Vancouver. And I ran the numbers and I'm like, man, we need to be busy, like full every single night, seven days a week in order to make this thing, you know, make money. it.

I got nervous. So I was like, well, you know what, we already been thinking about moving. So we're like, you know what, maybe this is our sign. So then we started looking in Kelowna, moved to Kelowna and eventually found, yeah, that beautiful spot that we're in right now.

Host (54:19)
Oh wow, interesting. I always find it fascinating where you know, how it all comes together. Hence the purpose of a podcast, you know, like it's really neat. Is there anything else more you'd like to touch on or talk about?

Brian (54:33)
No, I think that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's wrap. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. was a, it's been a journey. Yeah. Around the world.

Host (54:36)
Cool. thank you. What a story.