Host (00:07)
should we jump into it? Okay. Cool. Are you from the area?

Shannon (00:08)
Sounds good.

No, I actually grew up in northern BC. Born and raised in Fort Nelson. I like to say it's the end of the earth. It's basically on the cusp of the Northwest Territories and fairly close to the Yukon, but it's still another like 12 hour drive. It just goes on forever up there.

Host (00:24)
How long of a drive is that from Kelowna to get there?

Shannon (00:26)
I think it's about 15 or 16.

Host (00:30)
That's a lot. Yeah, you know, it blows our mind because we don't think like we know our province is tall, but we don't really know how tall people from Europe don't understand the concept that you can drive that long and you're still in the same.

Shannon (00:37)
all it is. my goodness.

Yeah,

we live in this big big place and of course all of us want to go and explore new places. But I mean, I love BC. There's nothing, there's no better place to live. So after I was in Fort Nelson, I went to university in Victoria. So I felt like then I had the opportunity to live in one of the best places in Canada. And then in 2000 and the end of 2002, we moved to Kelowna. What did you do? Bachelor of Commerce.

Host (01:06)
Take an universe. Okay.

Shannon (01:09)
Yeah, so I went to UVic and so went from small town girl to big, well, big, well for me was a big city. I did love Victoria and when we came to Kelowna I'm like I have now, I can officially say I've been here for 20 something years. I have had the opportunity to live in two of the best places in BC and I love to visit both. I don't go up north very often because there's so many

Host (01:13)
is relative relative

Shannon (01:30)
neater things to see and I don't want bugs anymore and I like it to be a little warmer. Although, know, I'll go anywhere for family.

Host (01:38)
what brought you I'm assuming you came after you finished your degree.

Shannon (01:41)
Yeah,

so I finished my degree Victoria and coming here I was working in the banking system at that time. So I worked for CIBC, started that in like an interim program through university and then continued on in Victoria. Transferred my job here really just on kind of on a whim, know, didn't have a big family at the time. It didn't actually have any kids, but it was, was, you know, we could move in a weekend and it really wasn't that big of a deal.

Host (02:05)
Where had you been to Kelowna before?

Shannon (02:06)
We

had friends here and we'd been here a few times. I'd spent some vacations in the summer and it was just a beautiful place. And so yeah, we were just like, let's go to Kelowna. And it was pretty much a whim just like that. And I transferred with a bank within three weeks of the decision of moving. We sold our house within about three weeks as well. And I was, I think we had sort of started looking in September and I was officially in Kelowna early November. Holy smokes. Yeah. So it was a bit of whirlwind.

Host (02:36)
Sorry, did you say that 2004?

Shannon (02:38)
2001. Oh, 2001.

No, no, 2002. End of 2002,

Host (02:42)
So that was right before like the housing market went? Yes.

Shannon (02:45)
Yeah, so when we came here, we you know, we bought a house right away and we had friends that said to us you're crazy You know, that's way too expensive. But you know, it was a good time for us Yeah into the market and soon after that I became a mortgage broker So I transferred from the branch to becoming a mortgage broker, which is I've always loved homes Sort of like not saying does necessarily designing home But I love putting people into homes because I just imagine what happens behind the door, know You think I think about people sitting around a table

That's where your memories are made. so, you know, maybe people thought I was, we would joke that I was like a debt dealer, you know, so I would have some mortgages, but you know, I was like, it's not, I'm not putting people in debt. I'm putting people in their homes.

Host (03:23)
I was about to ask how would you summarize being a mortgage broker for somebody who doesn't know like myself, the details, but like, know that somehow you can get a mortgage through you, but what, what is it that you actually do?

Shannon (03:32)
Yes.

So basically as a mortgage broker, just like you could be a mortgage broker associated with a bank or you could be one that's independent and you go to the all the banks and various lenders that are out there and you place clients with those lenders. so it's sometimes it's, you know, straightforward and you could just go to your regular branch and get your own mortgage. And sometimes you'll get a really great deal, but a mortgage broker can look at your full.

you know, your credit, your employment, what you're looking for. And they can say to you, hey, there's different options out there. Kind of like ordering a pizza. You know, some people might just want pepperoni and call it a day. And other people may be like, okay, I have, like you said, your daughter has celiac. So I need a gluten-free, I need this. When you bring in different issues, a mortgage broker specializes in it. And they can be like, okay, I know a lender who works really well with self-employed. I know a lender who works with people who've maybe had a bankruptcy. I know lenders who actually give

excellent, excellent rates to people who have, you know, um, top notch credit. And so when you go to a branch, you're just getting, you know, one opinion. When you go to a broker, you're going to, you should be getting, if they're a reputable, um, experienced person, you should be getting a very good piece of advice and then being placed with what you need versus just being just, just plunked into a five year variable or a five year fixed or whatever.

Host (04:51)
Yeah, that was a really good

Shannon (04:54)
Yeah, but you really pay for a mortgage broker because the bank pays you that you're placed with. The only time you'd pay for a mortgage broker is if you were in a very different circumstance and they had to place you with a lender that charged a fee. And so generally speaking, a mortgage broker is free to you, but you get really good advice if you find a good one. And there's lots of good ones.

Host (05:13)
I was kind of thinking it's almost like a, what do you call it? Like a travel agency. Go on a vacation or you can go to somebody, especially back in the day before the internet, who really specializes in knowing all the ins and outs of...

Shannon (05:19)
In a way, yeah.

everything.

And I think in the world that we're living in like when you say travel agency ⁓ I feel like we have so much choice. There's so much choice and I think that does tend to paralyze us and be like did I make the right decision? Did I get all the information? Could have I saved here? Could have I done this differently? And I know like I used a travel agent earlier this year and I felt so much more peace knowing that she was like okay here's what we're doing here's why. We actually my daughter and I ended up on a first-class flight and we saved.

We saved $40 by doing it and we got an extra night at our destination. So it was actually cheaper for us to fly back first class. I would not have known that nor what have I looked, but because the travel agent was like, this is an odd day and there's room on a flight. So I like when somebody, I don't ever claim to be an expert in everything. I'm an expert in what I know. so I'd like to trust people who are experts in what they know. And that can give me peace of mind. So when you make a decision instead of,

sitting back and having buyer's remorse or feeling kind of like, did I, didn't I? You can just rest easy and be like, I made the best decision I could with the information I had because I had good advice.

Host (06:37)
Yeah, I definitely connect with when you say there's too many choices nowadays. definitely, like when I go out to a restaurant, I need to make a decision like right away or else something happens in my mind and I freeze. When there's too many choices, I absolutely freeze. I'm like, I'm done. have no, this is ridiculous. I have no idea.

Shannon (06:56)
I

don't know what to get. And in those moments for me, I often will just say to the waiter or the waitress, I'll say, what is most popular here or what do you Because I love to limit some choices. Like take that five page menu down to like four items.

Host (07:10)
wonder, you know, it just dawned on me. I wonder if this personality, if anybody else is similar, or you freeze with too many choices. I wonder if we're the people that like to go back to the same restaurants all the time. Maybe. Because we know what we're going to order. Or we know the three things we like, so we're not going to have that moment of, must be a personality.

Shannon (07:28)
Yeah, it

might be. See, I actually love spontaneity and I love variety. I kind of feel like with, just don't let myself, I try not to get too worked up about a choice because I'm like, okay, there's another meal, there's another this, there's, I just love the experience of kind of trying anything new. Yeah.

Host (07:45)
actually

circle back to this because this is one of the traits same when the coffee roaster people are on trying to get consistent coffee.

Shannon (07:53)
They're fantastic. Craft for you too. their coffee is very good.

Host (07:57)
really good.

But that I have the same issue with the sourdough and that wanting the consistency to be exactly the same. Right. And I feel like as a I have grown as a person because now I'm embracing the fact that it's a little bit different each time. Absolutely. Well, before I would get really uptight about it. Now I'm like,

It didn't, you know, it did this this time. It's probably because it's raining today or, like whatever that might be. So yeah, now I'm trying to like embrace these.

Shannon (08:27)
Well, say variability. I have a membership within my sourdough.

business. And I have a few things that I say to them all the time. like, you know, one of them is I say to them, we, teach you time honored techniques with modern methods, because I do want to, you know, honor the process that's sourdough slow food. Slow food is great because, you know, it's a little bit to work here, a little bit to work here over long periods of time that fermentation breaks down some of the gluten, it breaks down the phytic acid, makes it easier for your body to digest. So I love that, but I also love how you can fit it into your day.

them that's part of what I teach. And then also say it's practice makes progress. Not it's not about perfection. It's never sourdough is never about perfection. And I actually find social media is challenging because there are some incredible bread artists out there and I can only imagine the time they spend to do all the beautiful artwork and this and that. And I do do it occasionally but it's not my favorite part because I just I actually like the bread to kind of speak for itself and keep it simple.

And I'm not a natural artist, but good for you if you, if that's your area, go nuts. And one of the other things I say is it's just bread. Just bread. So when I, when I transferred from becoming from a banker to a baker, you just drop the N there and banker to baker. I, the reason I did it I had three small kids at the time and I was like, you know, I actually don't want a super serious job. I want something where it's literally just bread.

Host (09:38)
it's.

Shannon (09:57)
You know, when you're working in wealth, people are very uptight as they should be. You know, when they're thinking about the sale of their house or they're thinking about getting a new mortgage or moving across town or whatever's going to be. And if they're feeling stretched, they are obviously going to be stressed. And you might be getting calls, you know, all hours of the day at night and trying to fix things if there's problems at the lawyer's office. But I was like, if I get into bread, you know, how stressful can it be? And I I'm a pretty intense person. I'm pretty busy and

I actually was on a paleo diet for five years before I heard about the health benefits of And, um, I, you know, I tried everything to make bread good, you know, almond flour pancakes and coconut this and coconut that. And and I just remember being, you know, I'm, I was so sick of people saying, Oh, that's really good for gluten-free bread, or that's really good. Oh, right. It's really good for almond flour pancakes. And I'd be like, I hate that. And so, um, when I learned about, actually had taken

Host (10:44)
the clock.

Shannon (10:54)
I had taken up this loaf of gluten-free dough that I would buy at this certain health food store in Kelowna. I took it to my friend who owned Okanagan Grocer and I was like, Monica, if you learn how to make this bread, you'll make so much money because there's a whole bunch of women lined up here every Thursday buying this bread. I was just, and she's like, Shannon, sourdough is so healthy. I just, I just can't even be bothered with learning a whole new thing with all those various flowers. And I was like, what do you mean? Why is sourdough healthy? It's just like, you know, mostly.

white flour or whatever. And she's like through fermentation. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And so she broke it down to me how fermentation does predigest the wheat and make it easier for us and reduces gluten substantially, especially if you know what you're doing and it reduces phytic acid, which phytic acid is the little, little part inside the seed that often isn't a lot, a lot of grains, a lot of legumes that interrupts your body's ability to absorb minerals and nutrients. So I'm like, wow.

it can do all those things. I was never a bread person. actually my sister's a pasta and bread person. I just always avoided it and I think I had stomach issues. Well after being on a paleo diet for five years learning about fermentation, I jumped into sourdough with both feet and I don't I still don't eat a ton of bread because I do believe everything should be in moderation but I have never had issues with my stomach ever since and I love making bread. So when I was saying like I'm intense and busy and all these things

I am never more calm than when I've got a ball of dough in front of me and either I'm shaping it into buns or bagels or croissants or bread, baguettes, whatever. I feel like that's just like, it's almost like being a gardener when you go outside and you're kind of touching the earth a bit. It's meditative. It is. Yeah. And grounding. And so it's like, I was like, wow, if I, if I can be relaxed through this process and then it's a hobby that I feed my family with, like,

That's awesome. That's a win-win. it is very artistic, and you can make beautiful things. And even when you don't do anything on purpose, it's just beautiful. So I was like, I love this because if I were to get into painting or into drawing or something like that, I'd be terrible. And I'd have all of these canvases all around my house. I'd be like, I don't like that. And I'd want to throw in the garbage, but my waste inside me would be like, well, you shouldn't do that because you just wasted paint, and you just wasted a canvas.

But with sourdough, it's edible art that you can just, you get to start over a clean slate every time and you don't have any, anything left over. just. Yeah. And I love it. So I know when I made pottery where you've got this, the bottom is so heavy, you can't even use the pitcher for anything. like, I don't want to toss it because it cost me like $200 after I bought that class.

Host (13:20)
thought of that. That's a really nice way to put it. It's like pottery. Like, what do you do with it?

You know you're right.

Shannon (13:37)
Edible art.

It's edible art. you know, and I have, you know, within my membership, we have lots of little mottos and we talk a lot about the benefits of it. But I have encouraged people to give away sourdough, like just especially during COVID. I was like, make two loaves, give one away. And I would get I would instruct them on how to put a little sticker on it, telling people how to rewarm it in case they were worried about cross contamination or any kind of catching anything and leaving it on people's doorsteps. had we had a whole kind of like we had a whole

community of people that were baking it forward. I love that people are always saying, you know, I've given up gluten or I don't eat bread or whatever else. You pull out a loaf of bread and they're like, today I eat bread. It is something that just connects people. And I love, love, love bringing people around a table. Food is where you, think you make your best memories. Those are the memories I have from, you know, baking with my grandma or baking with my mom or just

Host (14:15)
Well today

Shannon (14:31)
We were sitting around last night with all of my relatives and so it's just it's a fun thing to to do. Yeah. Yeah

Host (14:36)
so cool. you're in your mortgage broker and then you've you did you work there until you had your three

Shannon (14:43)
children?

when I had my first I went back to work three weeks afterwards and my second when he was born 16 months later and so I took six months off and my husband was transitioning to work with me at that point. So he was working with me and so he was pretty much up and running by the time we had our son and by the time we had our third which was two and a half years later he was pretty much running it and I was doing a lot of the back behind the scenes and so my daughter my youngest was she was

probably three when I got into sourdough and she's 16 now. And initially I just, I just loved doing it and it was part of, just part of our daily eating. So we were on a paleo diet for five years and that was now we were transitioning into, into, eating bread again, but fermented and my kids loved it. I had fun making it. It was just a nice thing to do at home because I was, I was only doing like behind the scenes kind of stuff within our work at that time. but it,

Host (15:33)
But

not only, you're three-

Shannon (15:35)
I know I always say like I'm a very like type a person who likes to accomplish a lot so raising little kids was hard because you don't you may get nothing done in a day but smiles on a face and a couple of snacks and lunches it took me a long time to realize that was okay yeah like you know that's that's that's a check mark in your day if you even if you haven't got to the laundry or you know even any meal prep or anything like that but once I started making sourdough with the kids I

I gave a ton away. would bake a lot because I was like, this is one of those things, like you said, you're wanting to get consistency. You're wanting to get good at it. You want to be proud of it. I made so much bread for teachers, teachers. my kids teachers, they'd be like, put, Ali Carson or Jai in my class. Please, please, please get a Peckford kid in my class. And I made so much bread to give to teachers. I would do a little bake sales within the school for fundraisers. My sister and I did a few little events through the school with like a lunch, lunch and sourdough type thing.

We had so much fun in those early years just baking and enjoying it. It was just really great practice to learn how to do it. so transitioning to a business, it was in 2017 when I started the Sarosco.

Host (16:42)
When

did that idea first percolate?

Shannon (16:45)
Well,

it's actually funny because I have, I've loved food. My whole family loves food. And I always said I would have opened a restaurant if the hours weren't terrible. And most of the time it's hard to make it. Yeah. And I, but I've always, always loved food. And so in about 20, I think it was about 2015, we were in Vancouver and we went to the dirty apron.

cooking school there. And they're a delicatessen and they do cooking classes and you get to basically create like a three course meal. You're kind of taught by a chef to begin with and then you get to recreate it and you sit at this big long table together. And I was like best date in 17 years, bar none. I loved everything about it. And I said, I want to actually create something like this. Like I'm thinking that I would want to go back to work now. I'm loving what I'm doing with sourdough. I do feel like I could teach.

teach it. the reason I wanted to teach sourdough, like I've never wanted to actually bake it for people. don't, I only, like people will call me quite often and be like, Hey, can I get a loaf or whatever? I'm like, actually don't bake it to sell. because I don't have a commercial kitchen and I just, it is my home kitchen. And I always feel a little odd about that. I always feel like, what if I, there was a cross contamination or some kind of.

I've taken food safe courses and things like that. I'm like, there's a few too many variables for my personality that could go wrong to do that. I really admire, and I have a lot of students who do it from their homes and there's different legislations in other areas. I like to do things properly, like where you have like a business license and you have like the inspections and things like that.

Host (18:15)
selling it you want to be professional.

Shannon (18:17)
I did.

so I was like, I don't want to go down that road and working, baking from your home oven in volume is exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. And you know, it is inexpensive to make bread, but your time does matter as well. And you know, just, because you're at home doesn't mean you have extra time as you really have no time when you have little kids. so I was like, okay, I went to this cooking class and I have this background in

business and I love to teach and for people who have gluten sensitivities or who really want fermentation in their sourdough they actually need to make it themselves. They need to know how long it was fermented, they need to know the temperature, they need to know there was not unfermented flour added back at shaping later on that's not fermented and so I was like the only way you're going to be able to do this is if I teach you and you commit to the process and you do it for yourselves.

So I initially started, was like, okay, I have a 1912 character heritage home it has lots of separate rooms. And so I'm like, I could dedicate this room to where I could teach classes and sourdough is slow food, like I said. So it's going to take a while. Like this is not going to be a two hour class. So I need to make this into like a day type thing. So there were six hour classes and we started with coffee. I love coffee, love coffee. I a beautiful espresso machine. I've got a cousin in

Victoria who's been roasting for 30 years and she's taught me so much about coffee and I also am very sensitive to oils and so I learned that I need freshly roasted coffee Otherwise, it makes me sick. So I've learned I've learned a lot about things So we would have this beautiful coffee with I do six to seven people at a time. Maybe eight sometimes We start with coffee We start with at the teaching and then we would go in and we would get into the dough walk through the process They'd have like a workbook and then we would have lunch. We would make lunch together while we were waiting in the waiting stage

And then we would kind of come back. I would bake enough loaves that everybody could take home one loaf baked and then they would take home two that they would bake the next day that they had worked themselves. It was beautiful. It was so fun. had and I ended up having a gift shop to go with it because all the products that I had sourced and used they were not easy to get. This was back in 2017. So before COVID, before sourdough was really popular, you know people couldn't get bannetins on Amazon and they

Getting a Dutch oven. I don't I don't actually use a Dutch oven I use a breadcrumbs kind like the one you have there, but I actually that one I don't even like that one because it's too small. wow Yes, and so I like I'm super super fussy about and that's a look for set like like I I was like I wish they called me before they built it I would have been like make it two inches wider like that's all they have needed to do and you could use it for boules and batars and things like that so all the things that the tools that I use and the things that I buy

I'm so, I don't like waste and I don't want things to be sitting around in my house taking up space. And so I was very fussy about what I used. And so people would want to buy them. So I ended up sourcing it and having a shop to go with it. And that was wonderful.

Host (21:07)
cool because like when you take a class you want to use what you used in the class. You're familiar with it and this yeah.

Shannon (21:14)
And when it's a new process, people are so overwhelmed. get so many questions that just like, flustered themselves with the details and they haven't even started. My best advice came from a student and she said, I left Shannon's class. It felt like a fire hose of information, but she had it written down in her nice little book. And I was like, I'm just going to do it. And so she goes, I just went step by step. I have a seven step sourdough process that I've made for

all types of sourdough that I teach and it doesn't mean that you go in the seven steps in order every time but you at least know I've gotten to here and I have to get to here and there's a few different things that that you can do to either slow down the process or to speed it up to fit into your life because I firmly believe there's nothing that you want to do that interrupts your life and if you're like constantly I've taken my dough to play dates and I've taken my dough to my mom's house and things like that depending on what I'm baking

But when you really start to understand the process, it doesn't completely consume your mind. You just fit it into your life and it feels really peaceful versus like a task.

Host (22:20)
I think, and yeah, that probably comes with time too, because even with this gluten-free sourdough I make from Celine's mother.

I feel like it's the day. I'm like, okay, this is the day. And when I first started making it, I wouldn't leave the house. the whole day was blocked off. I'm making bread today. But now that I've done it enough weeks, I'm like, that's ridiculous. I just do this one step, then I can go for four to six hours. But it comes with familiarity and yeah.

Shannon (22:47)
And that's the

So

you have to teach people that there's this process that they'll understand. give it a minute. Don't consume yourself with, I need filtered water? Do I need a thermometer? Do I need that wech jar that you have? Can I do it? What if I happen to use a spoon? What if I do, I'm like, you're overwhelming yourself with details. Again, there's too much information out there. So I say to my students or anybody who wants to be a potential student, I say to them all the time, just pick one instructor you like.

and just do what they say. There's a million ways.

Host (23:17)
You know what?

Yeah, because that's really good advice. one of the things, because I'm just new to this. One of the things with the beauty of the internet is there's so much information. But the downfall to that is everybody does it differently. contradictory. like, what do you do? And then you get lost. And then you're like, well, should I do a little this and a little that? But you're right. Pick one.

Shannon (23:30)
information.

Take one and

then even stick to a recipe for a long time. There's a lot of people who like they'll message me and be like, Hey, I tried your recipe. Totally bombed. I followed it to a T except I 100 % whole grain, fresh milled flour. I did reduce the water by 10%. I did this and I'm like, well,

It's not quite to a tee. Let's just back you up a little bit and I say, you know, like people will often say to me, Hey, do you do a lot of whole grain? And I'm like, I actually don't do a lot of whole grain. And I've got a couple of reasons for that is whole greens are, you know, I teach, I teach in 17 countries. I teach online in 17 different countries. So people will say, what flour do you recommend? I'm like the one you can get. So in Canada, we have, we have a, we have a hard red spring weeds. so our, our, because of our growing season, we have our,

because of the cool temperatures in our growing season, we create a high protein flour. even like, um, all of our flowers, pretty high protein. So between like about 11 and 13%, 11 to 14 % protein content. you can't actually ever really know you have to still test your flour every single time you open a bag because it's coming from a different harvest, a different production. They're going to be a little different and they may absorb water at different rates.

But when you're starting with a stronger bread flour, you can get pretty consistent results all the time.

Host (24:54)
Do you, how do you test the?

Shannon (24:56)
Testing the flour would

be really just like kind of, you could just put a little bit of flour and water. So you could have flour and water in a cup with a little bit of starter at say 50 % of a hydration ratio. so you know, like a one to one part flour to two parts water or no, no, no, no, I'm trying to think 50, 50%. So one part flour to, to half the two parts flour to one part of, of water. So that would be 50 % hydration. Okay.

And then you could have another cup where you add a little bit more water, 60, 70%, 80%. And you can just watch what it's doing. You can do little pulls and stretches on it. You can incorporate, yes, you it together. ⁓ what I just do is anytime I get a new bag of flour, I just go back to my normal recipe and I'll just be like, does this feel differently? Does it feel wetter? Does it feel drier? Do I feel like I need to add more water to it? But you'll only ever know that if you make the same recipe a few times.

Host (25:31)
you actually like incorporate.

feel

for them.

Shannon (25:50)
And so then once you have the feel for like your sort of your basic white flour, if you want to be adding in whole grains for flavor, for fiber, for nutritional value, do it gradually. And then just kind of, I always say like audit, audit, audit, you know, do your bake. I have these little timeline sheets I made a long time ago so you can keep track of, you know, the timing, you know, when you did your turns, when you actually shaped it, how long was your bulk fermentation. You can write down time, the temperature in your home at that time if you want to.

And so then when you're done, if you open the oven and you got a pancake, you're like, you can go back and look at your little time sheet and be like, what did I do? ⁓ yeah. I left the house for five hours that I forgot about or whatever. know, some people don't, if you don't actually assess your results, you don't actually know if you did something wrong. And I can, and sometimes you even forget to add ingredients. Sometimes you forget to the salt or you forget things like, I don't know about you, but my brain does not work a hundred percent of the time. Yeah, totally.

Host (26:43)
I would concur with you.

Shannon (26:46)
When you're, if you're wanting to add in whole grains, like I personally, my, my thing is, is I do think eating bread in moderation fermentation is far better for me than just adding in whole grains. because whole grains actually have more phytic acid and they do have more components that are harder in your system to digest. And when you do add them into, into, sourdough, those things can be fermented down as well to make it easier for your body. But they also make the process.

there's higher enzymatic activity which does make it ferment faster. You may have to add more water because they are thirstier grains. Brown, I always joke it acts like little murderous knives in your dough. So brown is like Edward Scissorhands jumping into your dough and it's slicing the gluten bonds. So often people will say it was so soupy, it was so sticky, it was gooey when I cooked it. There's a lot of different things and for me

when I'm going to eat bread, I don't want to be like, I need a glass of water to get all this whole grain down. We are like, yeah, like I want, I want it be a smooth flavor. I want to enjoy the taste of it. If I want whole grains in there, I usually want it for flavor, not for nutrition. because I personally believe each your breads and moderations and eat a lot of vegetables. Get your fiber from your vegetables, get your fiber from your, like other foods. If you are

just eating bread and thinking you're going to be thriving. That'd be like being like I only drink kombucha because but it's like you need like a quarter cup of kombucha a day. Like you don't need to drink four cans of it. when you're doing that you're just you're just drinking a pop. Like there's a lot there's a lot of things I think we take a health food and we're like now I can eat a whole loaf of bread because it's sourdough. It's like no you still shouldn't you should still think about a very balanced healthy diet that's primarily like I'm not a vegetarian by by no means but

I do eat lot of vegetables.

Host (28:36)
Can you touch on more about the fermentation process and sourdough that you buy in the store and how it's a bit deceiving?

Shannon (28:43)
Absolutely

yes. Some sourdough in the store is actually just sourdough flavor added in. Like honestly it's like it's like almost like a like a vanilla extract. Some of it is just sourdough flavor. So you do have my dad is he's he makes me laugh because he he doesn't actually he doesn't seem to get what I do and and he does like health things but he's like I just get my sourdough at like a really big box store type thing and he's like it's great and but when you look at the ingredients you're like well.

I'm just not going to argue with you anymore, dad. It's fine. If you enjoy your sourdough, it's working for you. Enjoy it. And that's totally fine. but when with in the store quite often, like the whole point of food in stores is to get food to people fast for the least amount of cost. And I think that's admirable. There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep the cost of food down to have families being able to eat well. with sourdough when you're making it, so you're using a live yeast. So,

the lactobacillus bacteria and the various cultures that are in sourdough, they're alive. They're everywhere. on your skin, it's on fruit, it's in the air, it's in the flower. When people say, how do you build a sourdough starter? And should you get one from somebody? It's easier to get a little starter from somebody, but it is so easy to build a starter. And the only time people get hung up on it is they just don't wait long enough. Like you can build a starter in five days, but more often than not, takes like 11 to 14 days.

And it's going to be better after a month. It's going to better after a year. It's going to keep getting stronger if you feed it well, but you can absolutely build a starter. those wild yeast, you basically, kind of, you gather them from the air and your skin and the flower and you start feeding it flour and water. that process of it eating away at the making those starches into more digestible food. They basically eating away, converting the sugars into starches. and it's really the waste of the.

that little bacteria that creates the bubbles in your bread. And so it's this long, slow process. However, you have to also get your dough to the right place where it can hold its shape. So it needs to be well developed enough so that it can hold as you've got this gluten structure built up so that it can hold those gases of fermentation. So you need to make a structure that can hold air. And then once you have that, you can then shape it into bread and you can bake it and you get that nice, beautiful texture.

But the timing of that can be challenging. So if you want to do a long fermentation, you're going to need to do a they call it cold retardation. I call it delay fermentation. So once you either after after the dough has risen in its bucket or you've got it transferred into your bannetons or loaf pans, whatever you want to do there, you're going to put it in the refrigerator overnight and maybe even up to two or three or four days, depending on that slow fermentation that you want to do. That's where all the magic happens.

So when it's at room temperature and you first start it, you're really just getting the dough developed so it can hold those gases of fermentation. So you have structure, so you're not making soup. And I think the thing a lot of people do when they're first starting with sourdough is they start with too much water in their recipe. And that's because that's what you see online and that's what's cool. It's cool to make high hydration sourdough. I say to my students, don't be a hydration hero. Do not.

Like let's start where you're going to have success first and then you learn what dough development is and you'll and you understand I need to make structure. Once I have that structure, I can make beautiful loaves and then I can want to make adjustments and up my skill as time goes on. But don't start there like you set yourself up for success so that you can make beautiful bread, but just don't be crazy right up front. So the reason that most bakeries and especially like just basic, you know,

grocery stores and stuff like that can't do sourdough in a truly fermented ways. They don't have the refrigerator space. Yeah. The time you can juggle it really well. And like, so there's some really excellent places here in Kelowna and you could ask them, Oh, like there's some excellent bakeries here. They don't all do long fermentation loaves, but they will often have like one or two that are long fermentation loaves. And those are probably overnight fermented. And those are going to be a little bit better for you. There was a study that I haven't looked at it in quite a few years now, but when I first was teaching, um, there was a study that

Host (32:19)
or the time.

Shannon (32:44)
broke down the gluten parts per million. So for somebody who's celiac, they're supposed to be having the gluten parts per million should be under 10 parts per million. So don't quote me on these numbers, but this is how astronomical it was. So in a normal loaf of bread, they would say it was like 24,000 parts per million gluten was in a normal loaf of bread, something like that.

When you do like kind of like just a like it's like a regular sourdough like maybe you're making it in one day starting in the morning baking it in the night I think you could get it down to about like something like 2,000 parts per million, but that's still not even close Yeah, where I'm a celiac person could have it and I'm not telling you celiac people can have sourdough Yeah, but gluten sensitivities you absolutely a lot of people do very well on long fermented sourdough

on the way I teach, you know, I'll say, you know, ferment in your fridge, you know, at least overnight if you don't have any gluten issues. But if you do, I would recommend keeping in refrigerator under delay fermentation for probably three days, two to three days. And there's techniques to also make sure you don't overproof it at that time as well. but they, the study that I had seen, and I, again, I'm not, I'm not the scientist. I don't know how you would check this at home. you have to have somebody who has.

willing to taste it who has gluten-free sensitivities and just see how they do. But it would get down to about like like seven to ten parts per million gluten. So technically speaking that would be on the sort of gluten-free status but you'd again who really knows. So the most important thing was is that people did know you have to go through this delay cool fermentation but what can happen so easily is it can be overproofed.

know if somebody's open like if you have one fridge in your house and say for you and if you have 12 loaves of sourdough in your in your fridge and your kids are opening that fridge door 24 times in a day you need that fridge temperature to stay at you know four degrees celsius 38 degrees fahrenheit you need it to stay the temperature to keep your dough from over fermenting it's it's going to probably be over fermented in a normal

home fridge because the fridge door is just being opened too much. But if you are going to commit to the sourdough process, a lot of people will have a second fridge and they will kind of keep things there. It just happens. Like you just end up, like I freeze a lot of stuff too, cause sourdough freezes beautifully. you can make it and take out a slice at a time. The little treats I brought you, those were, one was fresh yesterday, but one was frozen for like a couple of weeks. And it just, I would never serve anything to anybody if

freezing it degraded the quality at the end. I would make it fresh every time, but sourdough does freeze beautifully. So you can really do some work ahead of time, which again is a lovely thing when you're a homemaker. you don't have to have this big mass.

Host (35:22)
to time it for the event or the night that you need it. can make it ahead, freeze it right away.

Shannon (35:26)
You can refresh

it in the oven if you want to have that crispness to it. There's lots of tricks with sourdough and I think the first thing is just wrapping your brain around, I can do this.

Host (35:35)
I can do this. What think what you're saying too is that, you know, the intimidation of the recipe. I remember with the one I had, was like, the expectation that this is going to be a success. just, this is not, it's not going to be success. said, what's successful is I'm just doing it like you said, I'm actually going to go through the process. I'm going to do it at home and get a feel for it. And the first one did not turn out. It was not very good.

Shannon (36:01)
And this was the

gluten free one?

Host (36:02)
gluten-free

ones. I had it, you you're experienced. I felt it. I felt the process. And the second one turned out beautiful. I was like, oh my goodness. And then, you know, it was just breaking the ice, like going through it, experiencing it. Okay, now I know each time, you know, and then the third one was not good. It was too dry. Way too dry. And I knew when I went to proof it, I'm like, this isn't a sticky.

Shannon (36:23)
Yeah. ⁓

I mean, it doesn't feel like.

Host (36:28)
I did it all the exact

same. measured everything to the gram, but I'm like, this one is not sticky. And then it came out super dry and cracked and all that. Yeah. And then the fourth one I'm like, I added, didn't, I followed the recipe, but then added more water just a little bit. I'm like, okay, there's that stickiness. And then it turned out. okay. So you're kind of getting ⁓ a, yeah, just something to go by.

Shannon (36:37)
It is very interesting.

Well, you do have to remember that.

And I think so many people, like when I initially started teaching classes live. Oh yeah, let's get back to this business. forgot about that. Yeah, so when I started teaching the classes live, that was like, was, we already talked about that a little bit.

Host (36:59)
Yeah. We're getting on. It's awesome. I love it.

It would be like 6 to 8 hours and they'd take some home to bake and...

Shannon (37:13)
Those

were, and it was lovely. they would come, they would have just this really great day. And I taught like maybe six or seven different types of classes at that point. We'd have different meals to go with it. So I'd have lots of repeat customers. But what I found is I'd be sitting there on a Friday night or Saturday morning, whatever, and I would just be inundated with texts. What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? Hey, you said this and I know you did this. my family was like, okay, this is a lot. totally.

Host (37:37)
This is fun the first time.

Shannon (37:40)
And so we, our other companies that we had, we actually got into training with mortgage brokers as well. So we were training and doing online training. And so it was like, okay, um, I actually can do exactly what we do there. I can actually do this with our, home bakers. So I teach home bakers. I don't teach like, like I just teach the average person, male, female, mostly females between probably like 35 and 70.

And they like, I was like, okay, if I create a video series and I have these workshops dedicated to certain baking topics, they can go in and watch my video. I make it one time. They can watch it whenever they want 24 seven, you know, all around the world. And they can refer back to workbooks and things like that. So I don't have to answer as many questions. And that was like, it actually saved me so much time and energy. And so I started doing the online classes, moving from just in home to online.

in 2018 and that was just fabulous. It was growing like crazy. was, I was having a lot of fun way before COVID. Yeah, it was like, I always say to people when they ask what I do, I'm like, well, I teach sourdough. said, but I started before it was cool. I literally, sourdough has actually, has actually been trending for 20 plus years, but it's like, you have to like, actually I laughed because I saw that Taylor Swift is into sourdough. I was laughing because everybody gets into it.

Host (38:41)
You're ahead of the

Shannon (39:03)
There's always some point in your life where it's like, I'm going to get into sourdough. And it's just a funny thing. I know for myself, that feeling of making something delicious and a little bit better for you and something you get to share, puts a smile on my face every time. Every time.

Host (39:20)
think

in the core of humans about, because we don't, most people don't garden anymore. No. And we're not making our own food. But there's something about when you make it yourself and you're feeding the people that you love, there's something inherently in our core where that we connect to that.

Shannon (39:37)
It's

just, it's satisfying and, you're like purpose. Yes, totally. So there, so when I moved into online, you know, ⁓ initially I just, started with like a sourdough series one one. and then what was my second? I think I've ran that for quite a while. Then I got into.

Host (39:41)
You know ⁓

Shannon (39:55)
a sourdough pastry series, cause I love making sourdough pastries. Love, love, love. Like I made croissants weekly for about two and a half years before I was like, like I actually don't even, I hardly even eat them anymore because I made them weekly for two and a half years. So it was, it was a lot of croissants in my household for that time. Again, the teachers loved it. You know, my, my kids would go to school with a little baggie with a croissant inside and I had built in taste testers.

And so I did a sourdough pastry series and then I actually did a sourdough pasta series. that's sourdough pasta is so much fun to make. I've never heard of that. It's so much fun to make. It's a really... again, it's... spaghetti? Well, I don't make spaghetti because you would need like a press for that, but you roll it thin and you can make papriadelli, which is a thick spaghetti or like a thick linguine. gotcha. Ravioli. Lasagna probably. Lasagna you can do easy.

Host (40:31)
even heard?

Shannon (40:50)
I do gnocchi, which my kids like to die for. They love it. It's so great. But it's just, again, it's way to have a pasta that is easier in your system. Like there's a company in Caslow that makes sourdough pasta. You can see it in lots of the stores. They're fantastic. You'll notice it now. Caslow sourdough pasta. again, it's just easier on your system. I was not a pasta or a bread person, but when I make it, my goodness.

And when you have fresh pasta, if you've ever made fresh pasta.

Host (41:18)
We

only make fresh pasta. That's why I never see it. I'm going to put a clause on this, though. We have a pasta making machine. Yes. So we're not doing all the rolling out. We put all the fresh ingredients in, and then it extrudes it. It's kind of cheating. But yeah.

Shannon (41:21)
It takes takes away. Yeah.

Yes, I've seen those.

I have a three foot long pasta rolling pin. actually had a local craftsman who built a whole bunch of them for me and I sold those in my shop and he built a few other fun things that were good for teaching sourdough. And so three foot long pasta rolling pin. It's like a one and a half or two inches in diameter. And I saw them online. actually, I was watching pasta grannies and they're talking in Italian. There was no translation. like,

Host (41:53)
the granny.

Shannon (41:59)
I'm just going to figure this out. it is you can roll out so much pasta in such a short period of time with this rolling pin. So I do have like pasta machines and stuff like that. I will, I never pull them out. I don't like wash. I don't like trinkets. I don't like washing them. I'm always like, I'm going to get a poke little holes and you know, so I'm always like looking for this way. So I kind of, do have a studio space because of teaching online. So I try to keep it out of my normal kitchen cause it's

kind of always messy. Yeah, so I started with that and then, you know, quite a few followers, ⁓ that wanted to learn that. So that was it. And then I actually created a membership. So every month we have a new workshop. I have done over 50 plus workshops on my website. There's everything from baguettes to nan bread to, cruffins. Yeah, was with the get, why bringing some guest instructors every now and that was with a guest instructor from California.

Host (42:43)
cinnamon swirl.

Shannon (42:51)
pizza with a guy out of Toronto, Matthew Duffy. I love him so much. And so sometimes we bring in these guest instructors, but I have this regular membership, a core group of people who have been with me for, gosh, coming up on I think our four year renewal for our members. it's hard to keep coming up with a new sourdough thing every month, but there's always something you can do new with bread. so like, love just, I love seeing and learning.

and experiencing different cultures of every culture has their own type of bread. I'm playing right now with this Turkish bread that is just so interesting to me. And just the technique in which they do it is so beautiful. And I actually wish I could, I've never found anything yet which explains it in English. So I'm just kind of watching and being like, I don't even know what that actually is, but it's fun to work with. And it's a really interesting bread. So maybe one day I'll get to go and actually figure that out for real. pretty cool.

Host (43:43)
We kind of breezed over the fact that you just jumped into your online courses. the well, I'm assuming struggle, maybe not, but the amount of time it must have taken for all of you getting all your gear and lighting. And we kind of touched on before we sat down, but it.

Shannon (43:48)
you

my god.

It's

always a work in progress and because technology is wonderful like I'm so grateful that I can teach in 17 countries and I can connect with these people and I the thing I never realized about when I started teaching sourdough I thought I was just teaching people how to bake in their homes and they would do it themselves but we have created such a beautiful community of people who they share ideas we've got a private Facebook group and we have this camaraderie they know me

They know my style of teaching and they work within my progress over perfection perspective. So yes, I have cameras and I have monitors so I can see myself and I have microphones that work some of the time. And I have taught live, completely live from ⁓ mixing starter to whatever. I do semi-live classes mostly now. I have done pre-recorded courses.

And sometimes the technology works fantastic and sometimes it doesn't and you have to roll with it each time. And I'm grateful that my community of people, they're so lovely. And like I'll have, I'll have one of my ladies, Frances, she'll, she'll interject on the call. She'd like Shannon, your mic went out or we can't see you that went blank or you're frozen. Are you supposed to be talking that slow? Cause we know you don't. And you know, it's, it's, it's been, I just really realized like the reason people

gravitate towards working with somebody or baking with somebody or being part of a community with somebody is because you actually create a friendship and you have this place where you feel safe and you feel together. And I think especially going through COVID when we moved through COVID and then sourdough kind of took off. didn't realize like we all have little holes in our heart, you know, whether there's loss, whether there is good times, whatever it is, you know, you might feel lonely. I mean, I think

they say we're in the most connected time of our lives but there's more loneliness than there ever was before. I had no idea you know that this little community would become this space where you bring friends together. go to Victoria now and I had dinner with one of my students and she's actually planning we're planning a trip to Italy for a baking retreat in a year so that's where I said we need to circle back to that. But you know this is a part of the community where you get to know somebody and they

They see something in you and you connect with something with them and then you can offer something better to other people and on opportunities where, you know, maybe you wouldn't be able to travel by yourself, but you could, if could travel with a group with like-minded people, that's fantastic. I have another woman who comes here every May long weekend and she usually comes and connects with me. We get a cup of coffee and if we can, if we can go for a hike, we do.

And then I have, you know, invites of like, Hey, Shannon, if you come to Arizona, make sure you pop in to see Sue and make sure if you go to Arizona, you know, it's lovely to create something where you never would have had the chance to bring however many, you know, four to 500 people together around a common goal and you get to build that community. So it's been, that was, I never expected that, but it's been a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Host (46:56)
I

think that's something too, when you're touching on where the most connected but the most lonely ever. And I feel as though like we're so connected because we know about everything. It's all very superficial. And these little like all these little stores and these little cafes and the roasteries and the beer places, you know, one thing they offer is this place where like you can go and it's tangible. ⁓

Shannon (47:09)
But yeah.

somebody knows your name.

Host (47:24)
Yeah and

it's like it's face to face and you're in we're coming back to understanding the value of being a part you something

Shannon (47:32)
You gotta get out and be a part of.

 And I think, mean, like I do, love, I love technology and I love what we can do on the internet, but there's also, you know, I joke with my kids, I grew up in a small town and I said, I I said, were, we were naughty, like in a small town, like you're trying to make your own fun. And I joke, but I said, I said, but we did real things. Like we, like we weren't online, you know, make it, I said, I love the, my kids are, are seven, 16, 18 and 20. And I'm like, I love, I love.

teenagers and I love young adults. It's just been such a wonderful stage of life. but I'm like, you guys have you guys all these quick little phrases for everything. You got a joke for everything. You got a label on everything. So witty. Like I laugh so hard at them all the time. But I'm like, we did stuff. We didn't have a label for these things or a joke or a meme or anything like that. But we were outside, you know, from dawn till dusk and we were making our own fun. And sometimes, yes, we did get into trouble.

But I think it's really important to get back to sitting around a table, inviting friends into your home. You know, like I lived up in one of the areas in Kelowna here and I found it was just like, everybody just pulled in, opened their garage door, drove in, closed their garage door. And you're like, we don't even see people because you're so busy. And I was like, I don't want a life like that. I want a life where, this was actually part of my job. said when I started my sourdough business, I'm like, I want a job where when my family,

my friends or somebody needs me, I can say yes. Because it's just bread. You know, like so if I don't get all the things, like there's, when you run an online business, there's a lot of components that are beyond just making sourdough for sure. And it can be overwhelming as any business. But I have always just wanted a business that says, you people first. And so, and it's worked. That's cool. Yeah, it's really cool.

Host (49:19)
Now, do you have much experience in gluten-free sourdough?

Shannon (49:24)
I was mentioning to you earlier that I did a course with Marissa Froze out of Nova Scotia. And as I mentioned, she has passed away, which is such a sad thing. But I did a course with her on gluten-free sourdough. And I said to you, I attract gluten-free people. I have so many friends that are celiac. It's not even fair.

I can't even share a croissant with you or a loaf of bread. And so I do have a lot of that in my life, but ⁓ which I think is coming back to me because one of my special skills is I am good at reverse engineering things and I am not like as much as I say progress over perfection. When I teach, I want to give you a recipe that you're going to likely have success the first time. I really do. So I do know sourdough is challenging and there are lots of steps, but I have broken it down and I do feel like

my students should be able to have success first time. If you follow what I say. One of my best friends, she's always like, she makes bread too. And she'll be like, it didn't work. I'm like, it's cause you don't do what I tell you to do. She's like, And I'm like, okay, there we go. So go back to the basics and we'll go from there. But with gluten free sourdough bread, so I am, I do feel like I can, I'm giving it a good go.

So the course, I can give you the links to the course that Marissa had. Her husband has opened the course publicly on their website. It was a course that I had under my group of courses for a long time. And then during COVID, I just gave it to them and said, you guys run this because it's actually, you guys do the gluten-free, I don't. And so it can be a little confusing. People are like, is all your stuff gluten-free? No, no, it's not. And in my honest opinion, it does not come close. It's totally different.

Host (50:58)
It's a totally different...

it's completely different.

Shannon (51:02)
completely different. I do find gluten-free sourdoughs easier. Like way, easier. And you let it sit and you cross both fingers and you hope for the best a little bit. my thing right now is I do want it to be simple. Like I don't want to mix 14 different types of gluten-free flours. cost me $99 to buy. That's going to make four loaves of bread. Like that just about kills.

Host (51:05)
way easier. Mix it and you let it sit. And then you bake it.

That's the it's the every gluten-free flour has its own. So I found I just make my own flour based on that recipe. But what I did was I made like 16 because I because I do all my own canning so I got all these canning jars. So I made 16.

Shannon (51:30)
different I know

Yes.

a batch.

Yeah.

Host (51:46)
mason jars pre-weighed everything. once a week when I just go down and grab a mason jar. Perfect. And then I just have to do like the psyllium husk little

Shannon (51:54)
little jelly part.

Host (51:55)
jelly

thing yeah and then it's all like good to go for the most part it's an extra step of complication because everybody you look at at line has their own gluten-free flour concoction as well

Shannon (52:06)
Yeah and frankly

I would prefer I've been looking at Costco the last little bit and they had a blend and I liked it but they didn't have it the last time I was there.

Host (52:16)
Sorry to interject.

but this is the thing because my because my mom was like, you should just buy Yeah, I said, yeah, it takes how many times to get good at it and then you're not gonna be able to find that flower they're gonna stop Like carrying it or whatever. if I just make my own blend, I know I can always get those ingredients

Shannon (52:21)
Thank

And

I think that's a great way to go. I am trying to find a blend that I like because I do want to, I'd love to be able to say to people, just grab that bag, do these four things. Because when I go and like, I mean, it is very expensive to buy all those flowers. I always use organic flour myself. So I pay, you know, where you can get a bag of a big bag of flour for 25 bucks. That's non-organic. My bag of flour at my discounted cost, I think is 89. So it's a big difference, it's,

Host (53:02)
50.

Shannon (53:04)
50

pound bag of flour. But if I was doing the same with a gluten free, like, my goodness, it does, it does really cost a lot. So I'm experimenting with it. So I'll keep you posted. I do recommend like, I, like I said, I'm so fussy about getting a good recipe before I would ever release it to anybody. don't like, I'm definitely not going to give a recipe the first time and like, yeah, it was, it was pretty good. It was all

Yeah. How long has your daughter been celiac?

Host (53:32)
her whole life.

we've just recently in the springtime.

Shannon (53:36)
Okay. Yeah. And she's doing a lot better now. Oh. Well, that's the thing when I, when I started learning about fermentation, like even kids who have gluten sensitivities, I remember this one sweet little kid, sweet, sweet, sweet kid. And I said to her mom, her mom came to take my classes cause she's like, she's not celiac, but she's gluten sensitive. I'm like, well, what happens to her when she has it? She goes, she turns into a beast. Like, what do mean? She is.

Host (53:38)
She's a different child. Completely different child.

demon child.

Shannon (54:02)
That's why

I started to laugh so hard because I was like, I just thought this was a gut issue. Like I thought they'd just be in the bathroom or whatever.

Host (54:08)
But the inflammation

goes through their whole body and it crosses the blood brain barrier. But you know, another thing is like, she wasn't able to really focus. She just kept saying my...

she'd cry and just say her head feels like a tornado. This is before we had any idea. Like my head's a tornado. I can't, I can't. And we're trying to do sight words. Mind you, I've been a teacher for 15. I'm like, man, this kid can't even focus on three sight words. This, and I'm thinking, hmm, know, trying to have patience. And she would just get so flustered. Like honestly, you can't do three of the most basic sight words that you sound out. You're not even like, these aren't even heart ones that you need to

Shannon (54:37)
.

Host (54:50)
your eyes. And since she's been gluten free for a few months, she's like, she goes, Mom, she goes, I can't, I don't know how to explain, but my mind is clear. Wow. She can think. Wow. And she can just, she'll sit down and do work and rattle things off. And her math all of a sudden, she, and I'm like, how many kids have I taught in my life who we think are kind of dumb, dumb, whatever, right? And ⁓

Shannon (54:56)
world of difference.

Host (55:17)
But really there's something going on.

Shannon (55:19)
I think it's the hardest part. You it's so hard to pinpoint the thing. Yeah

Host (55:24)
Like you were in there.

We were just inflaming your body every day of your life. Yeah, and it like it breaks your heart.

Shannon (55:31)
⁓ least we caught it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that it is. It is wild that the different symptoms like that was like I really learned a lot just learning about fermentation in general. Like I like I like fermented everything. I love like sauerkrauts and Kim cheese and I'm not I don't I have this thing like I love food. I love coffee and I do like the occasional glass of wine, but I don't like to drink my calories. So like I don't really go for like kombucha and smoothies and things like that. That's just not my coffee. It's like, well, no, I like a latte. I'm a latte girl. Like just just a little bit of milk. ⁓

Like I just keep my two coffees day to day, four ounces of milk in each one. That's how I do it. ⁓ And for me, it's like the coffee is like, ⁓ it's the only time I sit down. Like I generally am buzzing around like a bee from morning till night.

But I sit for my coffee every time. And it might be six minutes. It's not going to be like an hour or anything like that. But I sit and I'm like, I'm to this old school. And I'm going to enjoy this and kind of make it like a sacred moment where I actually stop. so yeah, so like when it comes to fermentation things, like yeah, love eating real food. But when you add.

Host (56:28)
and enjoy.

Shannon (56:43)
fermented foods to your diet. really does help your gut. Like I had a terrible stomach for years. That's why we were paleo for five years. And that totally, I feel like reset my gut. I've had no issues ever since. none. And that's like a lovely thing.

Host (56:57)
It's incredible

what they're learning about the gut health and all that and your microbiome and how it affects your mood, your

Well, should we wrap it up then? Okay.

Shannon (57:04)
We can wrap it up.

But I should swing by craft 42 and grab some beans because I'm out. Yeah. I love their beans.