Dr. Sanders (00:08)
Gryphon Vernon came there in 1994 from Quinnell. pretty much since I was six, and Vernon. Moved to Kelowna for university at UBCO and then went to...

Host (00:19)
Was that when it was on KALO?

Dr. Sanders (00:21)
UBCO, so OUC is what OC used to be. The one out by the airport used to be OUC. It was the first year that it was UBC. okay. Yeah, so it's kind of this big, they had these big kind of hopes for it, but it ended up being a really low attended year. So we had a really quiet campus. we, there was only two.

Host (00:25)
Right.

Dr. Sanders (00:43)
⁓ two visit, two buildings up there with, with on campus housing compared to 10 or 20 or so that there are now. It was great. I had a great time up there. really, really awesome learning and kind of smaller group environments. I did chemistry. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was high school. I don't even remember. It was so long ago. It my 20 year.

Host (00:57)
So you're a math science dude through, through like high school and stuff like that?

Dr. Sanders (01:06)
school or uni in June this year so it's crazy to think that it's been that long. But yeah I always really liked math and science but I went into university thinking that I was gonna do biology because I wanted to do dentistry. I wanted to do dentistry since grade eight. Yeah I don't

Host (01:21)
so you did know. No,

I'm always so curious about like how people end up where they are.

Dr. Sanders (01:26)
It's kind of weird to think about because I get asked that question quite often and thinking back to it's like what actually inspired me to do dental because my parents were both physicians in Vernon so they're like, you're be a doctor like mom and dad and I said absolutely not because I saw what they they went through there, know on call, working weekends, know nine o'clock at night at home with piles of patient charts on the kitchen table trying to finish off the day's work and that's not for me, right? It was very

honorable work, but not like I'm going to find something different. And I always just kind of liked the science side of dentistry. thought it was really cool. And so I just glommed onto that. The interesting thing about the career is you don't do any actual work on dental patients until almost your third year in the program.

Host (02:17)
So you didn't, now did UPC have a program?

Dr. Sanders (02:19)
No,

no. they, the professional school is, has undergrad prerequisites. So I did a degree in chemistry at UBCO and then I had to go to Vancouver for, Denver. Yeah. So it was 10 years of, 10 years of post-grad by the time I was done.

Host (02:30)
post-graduate.

So you're

so you basically you're you're hoping that you're going to like it and you've been there two years and you still haven't even done work. So you might not even know if you even enjoy working in a mouth and you're three here. You're like committed by this point. Are there people that get to third year and they're like, I'm out or at that point.

Dr. Sanders (02:45)
100%.

Yeah

It's almost cost prohibitive to do so. Dental school is expensive. It was $50,000 a year when I went. It's closer to $75,000, $80,000 now.

Host (03:03)
After a Bachelor of Science.

Dr. Sanders (03:05)
You're kind of buried at that point. gotta go into it. think, you know, unfortunately the profession itself has a bad reputation amongst just the people, right? You know, we are inducers of fear and pain for a lot of people. It was one of the most interesting things that I remember when I graduated, because it was hard the first couple of years out of school. You're sitting in this chair talking to a

to a patient and you gotta be part therapist in a lot of the ways, like the skillsets that you need to be a good dentist, they don't teach you. Now they teach you how to not kill someone, which is great. But the skillset to actually be a good dentist and to have patients that want to come back, those are all things you gotta learn after and on the fly.

Host (03:41)
Obviously

Dr. Sanders (03:53)
most of the time, we're grossly unprepared for the human side of that journey. And it was really what put me down the realm of building the office that I have now, because that, you know, I am by nature a people person, I, you know, had an inherent skill set for that. And I just wanted to leverage that to create something that worked for me, you know, create my own space, it in, build it in my own, own kind of way.

And we've been very fortunate that it's been very successful and we have lots of patients that really like what we do, even though they'll still occasionally tell me that they don't like me. It's just how it goes. But it's been an incredible journey and a privilege to have those people come through the doors.

Host (04:28)
I'm

Isn't that, that reminds me of, or I connect with that with the teacher level. Cause I was a, did my bachelor of science, U of C post degree in teaching, not a single class of classroom management. And 90%, if not more of the job is classroom management. You have to understand how to manage a larger group of children. And not only that, like all the different

needs and learning disabilities. I think I had one class as inside of a class on like autism. It was like two hours, one afternoon. And you're thinking, you walk out of that and you get into the classroom. You're thinking, wow, like what the heck? It reminds me of, it's kind of the same thing. Again, for you to build a business too, building a business, you have to have a business to be a dental, to be an dentist. And the business is having patients yet.

You don't have education on people. That's amazing. that's the other thing. that like, yeah, not only that, yeah, it's even more complicated because now you're in, so why did you open up your own business instead of working for somebody else?

Dr. Sanders (05:26)
or business.

I did work for somebody else for, I worked for a couple other people. So I opened Knox four years ago and before then I've been out as a dentist for 10 years. I worked in other offices and I mean, I think just inherent to my personality, I like to push the envelope in technology and systems. I'm one who likes to tinker with the way things are operating and change them if they're broken.

And that just wasn't something that other offices were okay with. You we, get into this other someone else's space and rightly so they, you know, they have a right to run it the way that they want to. But it's really hard to sit back and watch something broken just kind of continue to limp along with nobody at the helm that wants to change it. And so that's really, I just, I just saw this need for me to do this for myself.

I wanted to be able to build something that I was proud of, but also something that really spoke to the intrinsic values that I had for the business. I wanted something cool. I wanted to be able to change things that weren't working or...

Host (06:41)
Or could be, could be better. could see, I could see getting complacent in your, in a practice and be like, well, it's worked and we built up our clientele and we don't need to go through the effort and the energy to modernize your technology or learn new things because you've done it a way you've always done it, which is when I came to you, I thought that was the first time in my life. You only always put the

Of course you know this, you put the needle in and freeze it before you do the cavity. That's the worst part is getting that, like this one's just frozen, it's frozen. But getting that needle, it's always like, my God, it didn't hurt. I'm like, what the heck? It has hurt every time of my life. Why is it not hurt this time? And you had some new technology where it like, does it vibrate your gum or something or rather, so that it like defers, it distracts you or.

Dr. Sanders (07:31)
sorta.

I like to say it's the skill of the injector, but we can say that it's the technology. No, no, you're right. Like, mean, that was one of those funny things where, yeah, that piece of tech was not something that I really wanted to buy. It was expensive. And I remember demoing it when we first opened and doing kind of blind, you know, patient against patient saying like, hey, what did this feels better?

Host (07:45)
didn't have to hurt.

Dr. Sanders (08:01)
And the most interesting thing that I found is that it consistently felt better, but I don't think it's because of the piece of technology. I think it's cause it's just different than what people were used to, you know, where you're used to seeing the torture chamber looking freezing syringe that your dentist comes at you with. And this just doesn't look like that. And so people are like, that's okay. Like it just disconnects that, that pathway in their brain.

from what they're afraid of to something new and they're curious about it and so maybe it doesn't hurt. Maybe it still hurts the same, but your brain's tricky.

Host (08:34)
Yeah, I feel it does not hurt as much. But now I'm gonna be thinking about well, I hope I don't get another cavity, but I'm sure I will and I'll be thinking about the next time. Yeah, so in wanting to create your new business, what was the process like in like Knox Mountain is such an epic name. Did you have a list of names or how did you come up with?

Dr. Sanders (08:59)
It was so long. It was so arduous. Yes, it was. had this a note in my phone because the timing of the business was really interesting. I signed the lease for that space a month after everything shut down for covid. So the timing of it was really stressful because I signed a 10 year lease on that space to say, oh, yeah, OK, like I hope we open ever. And, you know, not knowing what was going on after after everything, the world shut down. Yeah.

Host (09:13)
⁓

It's hard to remember that in that moment we actually didn't know what the future was going to hold. Looking back, you're it's all good. But in that moment, we didn't know how long this was going to be or how bad it was going to get or whether things would ever go back to quote unquote normal.

Dr. Sanders (09:44)
Yeah, it was, it was interesting to kind of reflect back on those memories. Cause I know some of my, my friends and colleagues who have offices that were up and running at that time. they were terrified. Like it was, it was bad, but yeah, just when you have all the time in the world, cause you're sitting at home with your, and I had a newborn daughter at the time too. And you're just coming up with ideas and everything else sounded really corny or overdone, you know,

pain-free dental or whatever like silly name you could try to come up with and I just liked that it was close to you know landmark that I've known since I was a kid and For some reason no one had snapped it up. I was like, this seems like a no-brainer I'm just gonna I'm gonna go for this. This sounds great

Host (10:27)
Oh, I love it. Yeah. And it suits the, yeah, it totally suits the neighborhood and the location. Did during that time, during COVID, is that when you were able to renovate at all?

Dr. Sanders (10:35)
No, the building itself wasn't even built at that time. So the building was a new build. I signed it before the construction was even done on the building. So we signed the lease in April of 2020, and we didn't start building the space until October of 2020, and then opened up in March of 21. Oh, OK. Yeah, so it was a long year of, you know, I was working at another office as a kind of

covering for covering for another dentist at the time. So just lots of work during the day and spend long hours during the night, you know, building up this thing that I envisioned in my head. It seems like such a long time ago now, but it wasn't.

Host (11:18)
that long ago. It's only been a few years. did you have an interior designer that designed or is that all you?

Dr. Sanders (11:24)
Yeah, Noah Interior,

they worked with a local company, Hatch Interior Design. Okay. They're pretty well known in the dental realm for doing excellent dental offices and they've done a number of offices in town. But yeah, they were so good. They made it so easy. I would not have been able to do what we did without their help.

Host (11:44)
And how did you go about your vision for how big you'd want it or how big? Because when you first started out it was just you, was it not? So then how many rooms you were going to have and all that? Did you have to do, did you even do that? Like marketing or surveying of the number of people that the dentists surround and what the capacity is for the neighborhood?

Dr. Sanders (12:05)
Yep, there's lots of different opinions and companies that will do that for you. I did, like, you look at the dentist to patient ratio and, you know, where the location is, how far people are willing to travel. And what I kind of learned after all of that at this point now is that it's maybe not as important as they made it seem. I built out seven rooms in that office when we first designed it because

in my mind, I thought I want to create a space for myself plus maybe one other dentist to operate. I don't want to have a monster practice. I don't want to manage a monster practice. I don't want to pay rent for a monster practice. And so it kind of landed at that number in the space. And in hindsight, I should have built out an office twice as big in hindsight.

Host (12:52)
hindsight.

Dr. Sanders (12:52)
But

you know in hindsight I got I again think back to signing a lease at the beginning of covid like that was that was really scary and to double that Stress at that time. I don't think it wasn't a prudent move I'm very fortunate that I've been successful enough to feel that way now but ⁓ yeah, I just We had such an influx of people from the moment we opened our doors that hasn't stopped and people traveling from

quite a ways away, a lot farther than I thought people would come. It's just interesting what the power of a connection can be, right? When you have people that resonate with what you offer, and you know, we're not right for everybody, but the people that resonate with us, like they'll, they stay with us, you know? They move away, they still come back to get their dental work done, even if they're in Calgary or.

Saskatchewan. wow. Yeah, like we have people that fly fly back, you know, because they want to visit Kelowna and so they come twice a year and

Host (13:48)
That makes sense. Yeah, I definitely was loyal to my dentist and she was the only one who ever did cavities and fillings and whatnot on me and when she had left the practice that I went to because my parents went to it and it was a lovely practice. I really liked it, but she moved over to the west side and it became a whole different ball game with two young kids now finding, needing to find daycare.

and driving the like I barely drive now I'm driving the bridge and then this what should just be this little appointment turns into hours because you got to drop you have to arrange for daycare or child care then you got to drop them off and then dry you know what it's all like but I wanted to stay with her she was my dentist forever and I was like I just this isn't working so then when I realized okay I need to switch dentists

Like, I'm going to go somewhere where I can walk. And you had just opened up and I'm like, sweet name, great location. And then as soon as you walk in, the vibe is just, it's all mountains and green, like your plant wall. You know, it's got a really nice, a really, really nice feel to it. And I was hooked. I was like, well, that was easy. So yeah, very easy. But for me it was, it came to location, you know?

Dr. Sanders (14:59)
But it was easy.

Host (15:04)
But everybody's got their own. And now I'll probably be there forever because I don't like to change. And my kids love it because you have a little iPad room. that helps too. So what type of, when we think about your

Dr. Sanders (15:10)
That's great. can stay as long as you want.

Host (15:19)
practice and bringing it up from the ground up. There was you. Did you hire one secretary to begin with? Or what's the proper name? ⁓

Dr. Sanders (15:27)
Office administrator, receptionist, Yeah,

mean, we had four of us to start including myself. So there was one upfront, one hygienist and one assistant. Gotcha. And we're 18 now, including myself. Four years, yeah.

Host (15:43)
in just a few short years.

And now up front you have three at the front.

Dr. Sanders (15:48)
There's

four. There's there's we just actually renovated our, our consult room to make space for four people in there. Cause there's between the front, like the front is very patient facing and he's trying to keep, you know, keep that flow going. So there's three up there and there's room for four in the, in the consult room. it's just a lot of people. It's a lot of people. Yeah. We're busting at the seams a little bit, but,

Host (15:49)
depending on the day and the time.

You're running on a school.

Dr. Sanders (16:13)
It's working. It's working well. We're making the best of space.

Host (16:17)
So what are these like, what are some of these intentional things that you've put into your practice to develop the culture that you've, that you've envisioned?

Dr. Sanders (16:25)
man, how long do you have? ⁓ Yeah, mean, so I think foundationally one of the things that I wanted with the practice is I wanted everybody to realize that they're just teeth at the end of the day, not that teeth aren't important, but that, you know, I don't think of myself as being on a different level than anybody else that comes through the doors of the practice, my team included.

Host (16:27)
Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm really curious about them.

Dr. Sanders (16:51)
So we operate on a kind of very mutual respect level and I don't go by Dr. Sanders in the office, I go by Jordan, that's just my preference. But I think it, I'm trying to break down some hierarchical barriers that I think exist. So that was kind of the first goal of it. The second thing was really who we hired. The way that we structured our systems in the office was to encourage people.

to kind of be the masters of their own dental destiny, so to speak, I guess. When they want to earn more money, they have paths to do that by accomplishing various kind of tests or exams or those kinds of things. So they got motivated people, people that want to, and it's not there for a paycheck, they want to be in charge of their own income. I think though, foundationally it was that

As leadership, we have a very big interest in knowing what the goals of our team are. So I want to know what the four, five, six, 10 year goal of my front desk staff is or my assistants. Knowing that allows me to give them opportunities to achieve it. Empower them to be able to achieve their goals. I don't expect them to show up to the office to achieve my goals.

They're never going to care about the practice as much as I am. But by offering them a path or an ability to get from the practice what they want, inevitably that's going to circle back and pay dividends to the practice. And so we just, we have these people that are really motivated to do that. And we also just hire people that have awesome personalities, know, customer service.

Being able to have difficult conversations without getting super uptight about it. We want to have open communication and, just pathways to be able to overcome the adversities and the disruptions that happen in a day to day basis. Culture is a really hard thing to define and a hard thing to say, Hey, like this is a hundred percent the way to build an excellent culture in an office.

But really it boils down to just being humanistic at the end of it. know, have people there that care about everybody else. That aren't super self-centered and living in their own orbit. But are interested and curious about the needs of other people. That's really all it takes is just having, fostering that type of thought process. If you encourage it, which we do.

actively, you'll find that people are, they want to be good. They want to live in that because it feels good to have it reciprocated.

Host (19:20)
Yeah. Do you do active things with your staff outside of work hours

Dr. Sanders (19:26)
as we've gotten bigger it's become a little bit more challenging to get everybody in the same, but we did a staff outing at a local board game shop recently where we had some beers and board games. You know, we'll do beach days and we'll do wine. We do a wine tour every year in September usually. Yeah, baby showers because a couple pregnancies in the office, couple weddings, bridal showers the girls will get together for.

Host (19:37)
the one on Bernard?

Dr. Sanders (19:53)
We try to celebrate other people every birthday. There's a birthday lunch for whoever's having that birthday. We just want people to feel recognized. It's definitely important to give people that. It doesn't take much, right? Just a little bit of acknowledgement for what they do, but also just what's going on in their world.

Host (20:13)
Yeah, but what other jobs did like you feel like? Where did you learn all this? Reading books or where you did you have other jobs throughout your teenage years or early 20s that you took little pieces from here and there to develop this mindset that you have?

Dr. Sanders (20:28)
Sort of. mean, the early years I had a sales job, sport check in Vernon for like seven years selling skis,

Host (20:35)
Definitely learn a lot of how to deal with different people.

Dr. Sanders (20:38)
So that was probably the people side of things. I learned that a lot there. But the biggest thing for me in the development of all this stuff was getting coaches. Having people that had gone through it and were emulating the things that I wanted to do with my life and practice and getting them to walk me through that. It's amazing the amount of time and the amount of

Energy you can save by just having someone come in and help you do the thing you're trying to do. Thank we

Host (21:08)
It takes a lot to put your ego aside for some people too though.

Dr. Sanders (21:10)
I guess so and I think it's a bit, it's kind of sad because at the end of it, there's a lot of things that I don't do very well. I'd like to do them better, but it's going to take me 10 times as long and 10 times more energy to try to get good at them myself. And we get kind of hung up about this idea of paying somebody else to come in and tell us the things that we probably already know, but

at the end of it, it's just, it's a shortcut to success. Like it's really crazy how, how quickly you can get to the point that you want to get to by just having somebody hold your hand a little bit.

Host (21:47)
Interesting. Yeah, that's really cool. So another part of this podcast is Like the intended audience would be the people who go to your dentistry to listen to get to know you better and hopefully other people out there might be interested and then want want to come see you potentially but is there Share a little bit of your personality besides being dr. Sanders and the dentistry like what are the sort of

hobbies you got or sports you play or things about you personally that would help to get people to know you a bit better.

Dr. Sanders (22:20)
man, that's a complex-

Host (22:22)
That's

a very big question. As I'm saying, this is a big question. How's he going to handle it?

Dr. Sanders (22:27)
I at the at the foundational level I'm a dad I've got two kids a six-year-old and a four-year-old the person that I was before my children is Not there anymore. Right? You know kids foundationally change who you are so I kind of am I'm a The embodiment of a dad joke I kind of feel like is probably the best way to describe my personality Like I am I am a dad if there was a dad. I'm a dad

And it's really just that I really enjoy the interactions with my kids. I like helping them grow and become good people. It's not easy. And I'm very honest about the struggles of being a parent. But I just, I'm a nerd. I love nerdy things. My kids and I right now, I'm teaching them how to 3D print at home. And so we have a little 3D printer on the counter.

Host (23:17)
Do they help you make all those cool things at the store? The 3D printed little business gadgets?

Dr. Sanders (23:20)
That is-

Those

are mine, but I have one at home and we're printing little Pokemon now. So they go on and they pick which one they want to print and I help them set it up and they just get to watch it. They take a day or two days to print out because they're quite large. And so this thing's just going all day long and it's just fascinating to watch. I don't know if you've seen in the office that I put a 3D printer up front.

Host (23:39)
Yeah.

I have not been in since you've done that.

Dr. Sanders (23:51)
Yeah, so there's it's printing toys all the time now. So it's just fascinating to see right? Yeah, I like to share that I like to share the the kind of nerdy things the things that fire me up You know, I've always been active. I like the outdoors a group in the Okanagan It's impossible not to be somebody that likes to go outdoors here most of my activities now are Going to the swimming pool with my kids not so much swimming in lake like I used to do but it's just a different

Host (24:15)
Did you open water swim? Like, I roll whatever.

Dr. Sanders (24:16)
Yeah, did.

Yep, to. I did an Iron Man 2009. So that was big deal.

Host (24:21)
That's a big deal.

Wait, 2009? Yes. You would have been...

You had time to train for that in your studies?

Dr. Sanders (24:28)
Yeah, that was during chemistry. Yeah, well, yeah, it was a breeze. It was a breeze coming down the school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Host (24:35)
That's

like legit Ironmans or a big deal.

Dr. Sanders (24:38)
took a year to train for it. But a friend of mine and I did it together at that time and it was the hardest thing I've probably ever done in my life.

Host (24:40)
Yeah.

Was it the the Penticton one?

Dr. Sanders (24:49)
so yeah, we did, we did all those good things. Lots of bikes, lots of road biking, you know, well, so I mean, so it's probably the best. That event is probably the, if I was to put on a pedestal, like what's your personality? that iron man was the first and only triathlon I've ever done. So I've never done anything else before then I just decided I think we trained for an Ironman and I did it. That's, that's me in a nut.

Host (24:52)
Just slide that in. yeah, didn't iron.

Yeah.

You

get a goal, you get an idea, you set a goal and you just accomplish it. Yeah. Or try to. Or try to. try to. Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Sanders (25:20)
Yeah. so yeah, I mean the, one of the things that I, that I like and love about what I do is like, I'm really enjoy doing the dentistry. It's, it's the people aren't always the easiest, but I think that the, because of how we deal with fear and the, that most people are coming into the practice fearful in some cases, we get the opportunity to break down some barriers. And that's probably the most rewarding thing about

So I love being able to connect with people on that level, especially see somebody that has gone through their lives being very fearful and is able to walk back some of that fear because of interactions that they have in our office. Like that's really the secret sauce there about.

Host (26:00)
I do feel that it's almost like a generational trauma with the dentistry fear and I do feel that it's getting better. My kids are not afraid of the dentist at all because it's like the cool hip place to go. You get to go there, the ladies are so nice, the kids center, you got all the funky things to look at and even Riley had a cavity.

And it wasn't a big deal. Didn't make it a big deal. And I feel when I reflect when I was young, but obviously my parents did not like the dentist, but also their parents went to the dentist at a time when there was no freezing. So they have that and it just gets kind of like passed down, but you learn from your, your parents kind of thing. Right. So yeah, I do feel like the younger generation is growing up at a time where they don't have to have that.

the same.

fear, you know?

Dr. Sanders (26:49)
It's a very intimate space. There's a lot of inherent fear associated with it. You one of the most interesting observations I've made is people that are covered in tattoos are some of my most fearful dental patients. is, which is you wouldn't think, right? you know, needles and you know, pain for an extended period of time. But there's just something about, like I said, like that mental

Host (27:02)
Really?

Needle.

Dr. Sanders (27:14)
walk that they take in their brain when they're at the dental office is just different than it is at a tattoo shop. And so that's like, it really kind of leads to this whole idea of disconnecting these small pathways that these people have to give them a new way and to hopefully help break that fear down. Because yeah, it's, I don't think I've had one eight year old girl in my entire career that said that she loved getting freezing.

Host (27:31)
there.

Dr. Sanders (27:39)
That's the only patient. I've seen thousands of people and that's the one patient that said that they liked it. And it's almost odd, right? Because you're like, that's very strange. But I remember being quite taken aback by this girl that's laughing while she's getting freezing because she likes the way that it feels. And I was like, this is really, really strange, right? But it just speaks to how, yeah, we take on some of the traumas of our parents and we build up these things in our head that

may or may not be real. And then breaking those down is not easy, because not only are you forced to break them down while you're in the office, but you're also going in, paying a bunch of money, potentially. there's a lot of things there that can just lead you down the road of being like, I don't like this.

Host (28:20)
Yeah, I'm just reflecting back and the other thing that the dental office has is it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like, what am I trying to say?

Because you have that the mountain and outside as your theme. It doesn't feel like this hospital alley that you're walking down. And when you enter a room, it doesn't feel like you're entering this, like the hospital feel. It doesn't, it doesn't have that feeling. I'm trying to say sterile, but I know it's sterile, but it doesn't feel, and I'm picturing like muted whites and blight blues and

doctor and you're not wearing a lab coat and all that stuff, right? I didn't notice that. I didn't think about that till now that it's, it helps with that welcoming and probably disconnecting those pathways that you were talking about.

Dr. Sanders (28:58)
Wow.

it's interesting that you point that out because it's all intentional. know, when we, and this is kind of that connection of where dentistry and marketing kind of intersect in which you wouldn't really think, but in the marketing world, they talk a lot about a brand's touch points. So how your potential customers or your patients interact with your brand.

And obviously when you're buying Nike shoes, know, it's commercials and those kinds of things, you know, you got athletes wearing them, whatever. But with the dental office, all you have is from the moment that person walks through the door until the moment that they leave.

And so the idea there was okay, so they're gonna, you you wanna walk in, you wanna have a really nice bright space that's inviting. So that's why the office waiting room is designed kinda like a living room, might be. You wanna have games for the kids so the parents don't have to worry about what the kids are up to.

some fascinating things like 3D printers that kind of, and you know, the girls will offer every single person that comes through the door, some kind of drink, be it coffee or sparkling water or something. Like we're not trying to create a spa, but we're just trying to create some comfort. Cause we get that it's not comfortable. So I know you have all these touch points. You have a really friendly front staff that are willing to help you. You go to the back, the whole interaction is meant to be very positive. And it's only that point that you get to the chair, which is where

the fear aspect generally comes in. And Lindsay and I are both try to be very upbeat and, you know, happy, break down some of those sterile thoughts that a lot of people have. You know, we're not in lab coats. Don't wear a suit and tie. Don't go by Dr. Sanders. We just want to be someone there to help you in that moment. And I'm to tell you a bad joke, whether you want to hear it or not. And then they leave and...

Host (30:48)
I'm

Dr. Sanders (30:51)
You know, so all of these interactions with the Knox Mountain brand, you know, there's seven or eight or nine different interactions before the people.

Host (30:59)
That wall you walk the living plant wall you walk by is very common when you walk by it You know, and then you always have on your screens the big beautiful Serene Is that like GoPro footage? Yeah, like the most beautiful places in the world, you know and your Your people you're very very good at writing notes Because they will remember like I don't like the TV on one of

lane there and I go in and they've turned the TV off. I think they remember all these little things that ⁓ your preferences and I think they're very, it gets just thoughtful. You're like, they've, feel like it's been tailored to your, to you.

Dr. Sanders (31:36)
It's interesting because none of that, like originally that was me. It's not me anymore. You know, I'm not doing that. That's the team. That's them being very intentional about the interactions that every single person gets. Because there's so many different kinds of personalities that walk through the door. So many different kinds of people like different things, don't like different things. And I think we as dentists,

Host (31:44)
Yeah.

Dr. Sanders (32:04)
in the past were just so busy that none of those things mattered. We never really attributed that mentality that potential patients might have with success. Because everyone's just doing the dentistry and they were doing just fine. But I think personally that it was part of the reason that they were also miserable. Because when nobody wants to be there and you're making no effort to help

them enjoy the time that they have with you like I walked into this idea of building a dental practice and the bar was so low like you do not need to do much for people to be like wow that's amazing right where you know medical aesthetic places are things like their bar is much higher because yeah so it's it it was incredible to me to see how little people expected of

their dental office. And I just found it strange that it's like, these are pretty basic things. Like I, I don't want to work in a space that's white and sterile and, and boring and quiet and smells like a dental office. Like I want to work in a place that's exactly the opposite of that. And so that's what we did.

Host (33:08)
Yeah.

what is the dental community like when you were starting your business? And for instance, the like Craft 42 when they were on and Railside when they were on.

They were saying that when they were opening up their business, like the other breweries, all the owners all came in and introduced themselves and were there for support. Same with the coffee. Does the dentist have that same community amongst, is there a network or is it kind of more, is it different?

Dr. Sanders (33:37)
It's it's all of those things and none of those things it depends like Dentistry on its own is a very isolated profession You know we if you go back even to the previous generation of dental practices like they just did solo practice work on their own Do their thing go home like the levels of number of times that you would interact with your colleagues would be Continuing education events or outings or something like that? For me like I have a

number of very close dentist friends and yeah like they come by they come they come check out the new space you know drop off wine like celebrate be be really happy

Host (34:14)
If one of you gets a new tool, do you like call? Go check it out.

Dr. Sanders (34:17)
Yeah,

I know there's group texts and sharing like sharing insights and and you know tough cases that come up and like what do you would you guys do in this case and so yeah It's I think that for the people that want it to exist. It is there like they're the If you want to have a dental community that is connected You will absolutely find it. Okay, there are lots there are a of dentists in this town I actually think that

patients in Kelowna are really fortunate because there's a lot of really good dentists in this town.

Host (34:46)
How many are, if you had to throw a number out there, how many do you think? 100. Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's a lot of teeth out there though.

Dr. Sanders (34:50)
Like

There's probably a hundred practices and like it's it's a lot for a town for a city that's this size So yeah, I mean there's definitely a lot of dentists that keep to themselves, you know, I never see them know who they are talk to them sometimes but you you would walk by them on the street and probably not Be able to connect then or see them but there's also a lot of people out there that do a lot of good and connect with

the other profession. I mean, it exists in layers, I think, in the dental world. We have this tendency to be incredibly supportive of each other and also incredibly vicious towards each other, depending on the context.

Host (35:33)
Interesting. What do mean vicious?

Dr. Sanders (35:37)
We are bred to demand perfection, right? You we you go through dental school and it is a grueling

Host (35:44)
dental school kind of cut through.

Dr. Sanders (35:46)
It can be. I think it's less so, but I think the definition of cutthroat is really what it comes down to because at its core, dentistry functions best as a collaborative environment. You're always going to have the best outcomes when you're working together as a team. Lo and behold though, you go to dental school and it's every man for himself, every man and woman, I suppose.

How do you take that and then change it once you graduate to become Mr. Collaborative? When all through dental school you've been Mr. Fight for himself kind of thing. It's a dichotomy that just doesn't work. And I think school does us a disservice doing that. But because we demand perfection of ourselves, set a really high bar, you're going to be hypercritical of the things that you see out there, especially if they're different from what you would do. So you run into people like,

I think it's the same in any realm, but the comment section of a Facebook post or an Instagram post can be like a vile breeding ground. But dentists are really hard. They're really hard on each other. They're hard on themselves. It's not a mental health friendly profession if you're not really careful. it can be dark waters if you're not willing to kind of...

Dissect the things that are going on within it and be very mindful of your own health

Host (37:03)
never I never I never knew that aspect to it that's interesting. Thinking about so you had mentioned that before you would connect mostly with continuing education events what is continuing education look like in this day and age do you go do you travel a lot for conferences or is just there a lot on I imagine there's a lot online too. It's everything. It's everything.

Dr. Sanders (37:24)
Yeah,

I mean, COVID obviously changed the landscape a little bit to be more online. But there are tons of, I've traveled all over the world to learn dental stuff from people, know, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars learning, learning different things. But yeah, I mean, the best for me, it's like, so we, started a dental education company here in Kelowna because I wanted to do hand

Host (37:46)
This

is your second company you're talking about. Yeah.

Dr. Sanders (37:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we we we started a dental education company that focuses on 3d printing in the dental realm and the idea with what we were doing was We wanted people that because this is pretty cutting-edge bleeding edge technology Especially a year ago like I've been doing it for a long time but not a lot of other offices are Just like any piece of tech. It's it's just kind of it's another thing so I

had a passion or a desire to do some teaching. did some teaching when I was in doing my chemistry degree and I really, really enjoyed it. And so I wanted to do some teaching here. And so I said, let's do some 3D printing teaching. And so we kind of built that up and we've run some courses and it's just cool to connect with people at hands-on events. You you bring them in, they know nothing about what you're teaching. You get to, you almost get to just

Host (38:20)
the people side of you.

Dr. Sanders (38:38)
give them the opportunity to learn something super cool and then they get to take it home and you know offer that service to their patients.

Host (38:45)
Wait, I got to clarify. So when you say 3D printing, you're not talking about like your 3D printer that your kids and you make in toys. This is like 3D printing tea? 3D printing.

Dr. Sanders (38:57)
Sort of. mean,

started off... Well, I mean, you're probably, you'll remember this. Even five years ago, most of the ways that we would work in dentistry would involve some kind of goopy impression material. Probably had a night guard or a crown. Yeah. So, you know, we don't do that anymore. So this movement from...

Host (39:12)
yeah. yeah.

Dr. Sanders (39:20)
the analog world to the digital world has been very fast and involves 3D printing. So instead of taking a goopy copy of your teeth and pouring it up in some kind of plaster, we scan your teeth with our internal scanner and a 3D print.

Host (39:38)
Well,

it kind of started with Invisalign. It was Invisalign, one of the first...

Dr. Sanders (39:42)
Yep. Invisalign is still one of the biggest 3D printing companies in the world. know, all of those aligners are 3D printed. But yeah, I mean, we make neck guards for people. Those are all 3D printed in-house, but it keeps going. It's dentures. It's cosmetic work.

Host (39:56)
so you do night guards. instead of instead of having to buy quote unquote Invisalign for a nighttime retainer, now you can just make them at your dental office.

Dr. Sanders (40:06)
Yeah, sort of. Yeah, you can. The application is basically limitless. If you think it, you can do it. so yeah, I mean, the things that you would usually outsource to a lab or, you know, you send out were now able to do in-house. I one of the... I told this story earlier today and I was talking to another fellow, but the when the fires hit to those two summers ago now.

Host (40:23)
That's cool.

Dr. Sanders (40:31)
Cheers.

Host (40:32)
Yeah, last summer was like the first summer, not many around us.

Dr. Sanders (40:35)
We have a number of patients on the west side and a number of them lost their houses and they They all lost their night guards. They had night guards. Yeah, I just re 3d printed them

Host (40:45)
And you have the file, you keep the file.

Dr. Sanders (40:48)
I just made them again. It doesn't cost me anything. I just read through the print and hand it to them. That was the flexibility that this technology gives us.

Host (40:57)
Because this is the thing before you'd have a night guard and if you lost it, by the time you got into the dentist and got another one and then it was sent out and you actually got it back, like by the time you, by the time you got into the dentist to get your scan again, your teeth had, well had moved. If I don't wear my, if I don't wear my retainer for like two nights, it's incredible the amount of movement in the teeth. So then now you're getting a retainer.

that is not putting your teeth back to where they originally were. And each time this happens, your teeth are just slowly and slowly like compound air getting out of alignment. now you have the original file. So you could just, that's cool.

Dr. Sanders (41:39)
That it's like the it goes so much further than that like I was having a conversation with another dentist last week about going to a underserved community and saying yeah, hey, you know, these are communities that would really really benefit from dentures denture services, you know being able to Have teeth they've never haven't had teeth in decades but to take a lab

out there to do a traditional denture workup like that, it just it's not feasible. Well now we can with a 3D printer and a scanner, I can go into any community and I can make denture in a day. Like it just we have these abilities to offer care that was impossible two years ago.

Host (42:18)
Wow, just two years ago. Well, that leads me to another question. There's so much technology because you when you entered, would you say you're pretty cutting edge? Yeah. And there's so much advancements with technology. A, how do you stay on top of what's out there? And B, how do you decide what to actually move forward and invest in?

Dr. Sanders (42:42)
That's a great question. And usually my answer is I just buy it and regret it later. ⁓ Yeah, it's definitely hard because nothing's cheap. No. in the dental world. Usually it's more out of curiosity than anything. You know, I spent a lot of money just buying things because I'm curious.

becomes a good, I become a good resource for people because I can answer for them if it's worth buying or not. But I mean that none of the tech is ever not useful in some way. It just depends on your willingness to learn something new. That's the thing, like there's room in this industry for any niche, whatever you want it to be. You just gotta be disciplined enough.

to stick with it, especially when it gets hard. You know, if you're doing something that's maybe a little bit off the left field, there will be people out there that will resonate with that. You just have to stick with it. And that's what a lot of us don't do. something gets difficult. It goes to the back shelf and that's where it lives until, you know, we do an office clean out kind of. But yeah, it's tech moves so fast. It's, it's almost impossible. You know, AI is changing the face of our industry as it is. And

Host (43:42)
Yeah.

How is it going?

Dr. Sanders (43:53)
man. Yeah. mean, so AI is becoming a staple in our day to day practice. So perfect example would be when our office operates on what's called assignment of benefits. So as a patient, you come in, you, we provide you a service and we bill your insurance company and your insurance company pays us. That's actually, or most people don't realize that's actually a relatively new model. It used to be that

you as the patient, you would just pay and your insurance company would pay you. But because of the way that insurance companies have kind of rigged the system, so to speak, we end up being in this position where we're left to contact insurance companies, get a bunch of information as a service to the patient, which is totally fair, but it takes time.

Host (44:21)
Mm-hmm.

It takes a lot of time.

Dr. Sanders (44:40)
And you know, if you've ever had the misfortune of calling manual life or anything like that, you're going to be on hold for a couple hours. So now AI is allowing us to go into a portal, punch in your information as, as a, as a patient, the AI will call manual life. It will sit on hold for two hours. It will talk to the agent when they eventually pick up, it will get all the information that you want. Like it's a person.

Host (44:46)
Yeah.

Dr. Sanders (45:05)
and it will email us a PDF.

Host (45:07)
And their agent's AI on the other end. it's like AI talking to AI.

Dr. Sanders (45:11)
Yeah, it could be that. could be a person. Like, so I now don't have to dedicate three hours of one of my team's time to get an insurance breakdown for one person because it's sometimes what it takes. it's just opening the doors for us to reallocate man hours because every hour that a staff member doesn't have to spend doing something silly like that can be focused back into the office to do something that's actually productive.

Host (45:23)
Yes.

Dr. Sanders (45:40)
And that's really powerful and you can do some really cool things if you have the man hours to accomplish them.

Host (45:47)
Yeah. Wow. I never would have thought that that AI can do that for you. Well, I guess it's going to be able to do everything. You name it. Yeah, it kind of blows my mind.

thinking of the world I'm getting off my mind spiraling on a tangent with the world's gonna become with AI and like you have a little kid our kids are kind of similar ages their ages overlap and just like the world that they're going to be entering when they leave high school is gonna be unrecognizable how do you how do you prepare your kids for an unrecognizable world

Dr. Sanders (46:17)
Yeah, I mean my wall, you know social media is a perfect example, right? Like my plan in my head because my kids are too young for it yet is You can't ignore that these things are there and you can't just put up put up a bubble and expect that If I protect my children from social media or from artificial intelligence That they're gonna be okay because the reality of it is is they're gonna interact with it whether you like it or not

Host (46:45)
Yeah.

Dr. Sanders (46:45)
And so how do you teach them to use it responsibly? Cause it's a really powerful tool. If you know how to use it, social media is an amazing example. Like you can spend your days looking at pimple popping videos or cat videos and the AI will, or the algorithm will very happily feed those to you if you interact with them. Or you can use the algorithm to your advantage. You can tell it.

that you're looking for quotes on life betterment on outdoor adventures with kids under the age of six about cool places in Canada to visit. That type of content can be really powerful. those are things like that the information is there for us to learn. And that's what I'm hoping that I can teach my kids because yeah, the toxic stuff is out there. The toxic stuff has always been out there. It's always been there.

Host (47:34)
Yeah.

Dr. Sanders (47:36)
And social media is just another avenue for it to land in our heads. But it's there and we've got to accept that.

Host (47:42)
Yeah, but yeah My kid just came home the other day and want and wants to join all of her classmates. She's in grade three all of her classmates are on ⁓ What's app kids or something like that?

so we're just now entering the conversation and kids have phones in our class and stuff like that. and the teacher side of me, I was seen and know some things I would rather not know, you kind of develop a, what is the right? I don't know.

Dr. Sanders (48:11)
Yeah, I mean you can

Host (48:11)
It

depends on the kid.

Dr. Sanders (48:14)
than the

skills but you don't have to necessarily enable it right you know cell phones are a really interesting thing because I don't you got your first cell phone I was in grade 12

Host (48:23)
cell phone like smartphone or cell like flip flippy phone flippy phone right grade 11

Dr. Sanders (48:30)
back in the 2000s.

Host (48:33)
It

was big white so that we could uh contact each other big white. Yeah, I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, but it was a little like, you know, what's the screen on a time the old timex watches had that is an lcd screen. Yeah, it was just one of those. Yeah, wait battery lasted for like two or three weeks, you know But and you and you could text that aaa or 1111 5555. Yeah, we had that for a smartphone phone wasn't until

Well, had a slide, like a slidey. wasn't a flip. It was a slidey phone in second or third year university that I lost in a little mosh pit. So upset. It was my favorite phone.

Dr. Sanders (49:09)
had that the the the the chocolate I think is what it was called the chocolate black the little black slider phone I had the same one

Host (49:16)
Yeah. Loved it. So yeah, like my first smartphone was clearly after that.

I don't, you know what? I can't even remember when my first smartphone was cause I moved, I went to Asia for a few years and I didn't have, we just had flip phones there too. I don't know. So it was definitely. Yeah. You think you'd remember that though, getting your first smartphone and the ability to have the stuff. Although that being said, when the smartphones first came out, they weren't as all encompassing that they are now.

Dr. Sanders (49:28)
over aging ourselves.

iPhone 3, the iPhone 3G was the first one that I had that would have been in 2007. So yeah, it's been that.

Host (49:52)
Yeah.

No, but they weren't, they didn't like right now it literally is a computer. Yes. And you still had like back in the day you still had, you would still carry a camera around with you because the camera on the phone was terrible. So you'd still have your camera and all these other features. Well, now it's all in one. The, the, photography, the ability of these cam cameras on the phone is just astonishing. And the video quality is like 4k now just

on this little tiny, little tiny device.

Dr. Sanders (50:21)
I know it's incredible.

Host (50:23)
how much better can these get? Like what more could you possibly put in this thing? Like what on earth is there? I'm sure they'll think of something. It'll like project some holograph or something in the future when you talk to phone grandma and grandpa. It'll shoot out and they'll just appear in 3D in front of you. It's going to be something. Anyways, is there anything else you wanted to talk about? ⁓

Dr. Sanders (50:30)
sure we're going to.

Host (50:49)
It's really great to get to know you.

Dr. Sanders (50:51)
It's been fun. mean, it's just an adventure, honestly. the amount of things that I'm doing, there's been a lot of change in my world in the last little while. I'm moving into the kind of the more the teaching side of things. I'm still working full time, but now I'm doing more traveling, more speaking, getting asked to come to conferences and talk about 3D printing, which has been really super fun.

Host (51:14)
Kind of

paying it forward, giving back to the next.

Dr. Sanders (51:17)
I just, it's, I've always wanted to do it and I finally gave myself permission to do it. even though it might mean I'm doing a little bit less dental work, it's far more fulfilling for me, at least in this, in this particular moment. So yeah, I mean, there's a lot to come. And I think that's probably the coolest thing is it's just the journey's been really rewarding. Even though it's crazy and roller coaster and every day is.

Host (51:37)
Yeah.

Dr. Sanders (51:40)
calendar full of things, but it's a it's a good life to live.

Host (51:45)
did you do a lot of like network, like a neighborhood reaching out to local businesses around you? Are you networked that way at all?

Dr. Sanders (51:52)
No, I mean, when we first opened, did. I mean, you only kind of do what you have to do, I think. But we, I've always tried to support other businesses. I don't know you've seen, have a, we have a community board in the wall in the, in the office. So an opportunity to kind of see what everybody else is up to. I did a lot of grant, what's called ground marketing in the early startup days and made some really cool connections, like taking bags of

Host (51:59)
Yeah.

You bulletin

Dr. Sanders (52:19)
you know, Knox Mountain dentistry bags with some toothpaste and toothbrush. Tens are the best. Taking those to businesses, like going to BNA and, know, being like talking to them and say, Hey, like, you know, come on by, we'll take good care of you. And having a lot of people come because of that, it was, it was really kind of neat to see that those marketing efforts, which were basically free. If you're talking about the grand scheme of things.

Host (52:23)
your pens, your are the best.

Dr. Sanders (52:44)
pay dividends in that way and then they tell their friends and they tell their friends and so yeah I mean there's definitely some benefits to forming the connections with the businesses around you because they're so eclectic especially now in in the north end because it's not just breweries anymore it's it's literally every business under the sun within three blocks

Host (53:04)
Yeah, everything. It's hard. It's hard to think of something that the area doesn't have right now.

The Ellis Street Market. Yeah. We got like, what don't we have? have everything. We need to go far. And that's kind of the city's done a good job at developing, you know, the Pandosie area has got a same feel and Rutland. You got these little pockets where, and that's the whole point is having that smaller footprint in these neighborhoods. So. ⁓

Dr. Sanders (53:15)
You don't need to go far.

I'm

excited for the mill site development. think that's going to be really, really cool.

Host (53:33)
Yeah, we were just talking about that the other day with a friend and I You got you know, you got like one chance to do it, right? Yeah, and however you do it. It's gonna be the last team impression It's gonna be there forever. well not forever, but it's gonna be there for a very very very long time So like do it, right? How and I hope there's I hope it feels good Like whatever the architecture is the greenery plant space the trees they plant like I the

I hope it feels good.

Dr. Sanders (54:01)
It'll be nice if it attracts just people to hang out. It just brings that kind of cool hangout spot.

Host (54:07)
Yeah, did you see that Clement thing that came in? No. news? the city of Kelowna, you gotta get on their thing.

Dr. Sanders (54:14)
⁓

the Clement connector. Yeah. Yeah. They've been talking about that for years.

Host (54:18)
the plan's interesting. They want your input in it and all this and I still, I still can't visualize it though. I can't visualize pushing that road through.

Dr. Sanders (54:26)
Yeah, it's gotta go through a cemetery, doesn't it?

Host (54:27)
Well, because there's that big power station on the other side of Spall so they're obviously taking up the rail trail to do it But then there's still but the rail trail still gonna be there But it must have to move over something like I just can't visualize this throwaway

Dr. Sanders (54:42)
I mean we need it regardless of how like yeah, one is not

Host (54:44)
Yeah, we do.

I feel so bad for these people that got to travel down Enterprise and Springfield and the highway. Like people who need to be in their car to get around, I feel bad for them because I'm like, especially whatever time of day that is when it's just gridlocked. Yeah. Harvey to Springfield basically on every North South Road is backed up all the way and you're just like...

Dr. Sanders (55:00)
All the braids.

Yeah, no, thank you. Yeah, there you go.

Host (55:09)
Hopefully you'll listen to a good podcast.

Anyway, should we wrap her up? Yeah, that's great. Okay,